Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

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MMan
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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by MMan » Thu May 28, 2009 7:15 pm

Just a further clarification, I think in Nohitter's original comment it would have been clearer to say that the relative volume levels are preserved. If you had a soft track and a loud track on the same album, analyzing volume at the track level would attempt to bring the average volume of each track to 89db and they would be seem to be the same average loudness if played using Track leveling on play back. However, if Album analysis was done, the adjustment for the two tracks would be the same and the analysis, in simple terms, would attempt to bring the average volume of the two tracks to 89db. If the tracks were played back using Album leveling, the loud track would be louder than the soft track as it was on the original copy of the album. So while the volume may be adjusted, the relative volume difference would be preserved.

dypsis
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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by dypsis » Thu May 28, 2009 7:18 pm

nohitter151 wrote:
Because all of the tracks on an album have the same volume level.
So then, what's the point of album leveling? What does it do?
Why not just play the album without any leveling?

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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by nohitter151 » Thu May 28, 2009 7:21 pm

dypsis wrote:
nohitter151 wrote:
Because all of the tracks on an album have the same volume level.
So then, what's the point of album leveling? What does it do?
Why not just play the album without any leveling?
Because if you play multiple albums, the volume could vary album to album. This brings the overall album to a level volume, so that there isn't a large difference in volume between albums.

In a sense, it considers a whole album as a single track for volume leveling.
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dypsis
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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by dypsis » Thu May 28, 2009 7:25 pm

nohitter151 wrote:
dypsis wrote:
nohitter151 wrote:
Because all of the tracks on an album have the same volume level.
So then, what's the point of album leveling? What does it do?
Why not just play the album without any leveling?
Because if you play multiple albums, the volume could vary album to album. This brings the overall album to a level volume, so that there isn't a large difference in volume between albums.

In a sense, it considers a whole album as a single track for volume leveling.
OK. Now I see.
Thanks for taking the time to explain.

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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by KetchupKid » Thu May 28, 2009 8:02 pm

nohitter is not correct. I don't think I have ever found a CD on which all the tracks were the same volume. Granted, producers general level the volumes to each other for relative proximity of sound level, but all the tracks the same volume db level? Not.

MMan
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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by MMan » Thu May 28, 2009 8:18 pm

Again as a point of clarification, I think that Nohitter pointed out that all of the tracks on an Album that were analyzed using Album Leveling would have the same "Voume Level", which in Monkey speak is the Replay Gain leveling coefficient or adjustment, ie +1.5db, not the same absolute volume level. The tracks on an album usually do have different absolute volume levels.

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Volume Leveling Without Touching Tracks

Post by dypsis » Thu May 28, 2009 8:24 pm

I guess this has already been answered somewhere.

Does MM add data to the tracks tag to achieve this?
I would like a process for volume leveling that doesn't touch my tracks.

Lowlander
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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by Lowlander » Thu May 28, 2009 8:39 pm

Analyze Volume values are stored in the database and the files (check for file type compatibilities in the Help).


Track Volume
Each track will play at the same volume level, no matter if they're softer or louder tracks. This is best when you play mixed tracks (ie not whole albums).

Album Volume
Each album will play at the same volume level. However individual tracks on the album can sound louder or softer depending on their original volume in relation to the other tracks on the album. This method is useful if you play full albums and/or prefer to preserve the volume differences between tracks on the album.
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MMan
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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by MMan » Thu May 28, 2009 9:07 pm

Again, for clarification, analyze volume (either Album or Track) only stores a coefficient in the tag (and database), it does not alter the music. The coefficient in the tag only gets used if replay gain is supported by a player and it is turned on. There is no change to the underlying track using Volume Analysis. If you choose Volume leveling (which can only be used when ripping or converting formats) that will permenantly alter the underlying track by irreversably changing its volume. The only reason to do this is if the palyer to be used doesn't support Replay Gain.

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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by Lowlander » Thu May 28, 2009 10:51 pm

MMan wrote:If you choose Volume leveling (which can only be used when ripping or converting formats)
Tools > Level Track Volume allows it on any track, but most will agree that this is a bad idea. If you need it for a portable player you can have tracks leveled on sync and thus not affect the original.
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dypsis
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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by dypsis » Fri May 29, 2009 2:34 am

Lowlander wrote:
MMan wrote:If you choose Volume leveling (which can only be used when ripping or converting formats)
Tools > Level Track Volume allows it on any track, but most will agree that this is a bad idea. If you need it for a portable player you can have tracks leveled on sync and thus not affect the original.
So what does Play > Level Playback Volume do then?
It doesn't appear to do anything to me.

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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by MMan » Fri May 29, 2009 6:22 am

'Level Playback Volume' is effectively turning on Replay Gain for playback on Monkey's player. If the tracks being played have been analyzed by Monkey or some other program and the file's format supports the storage of the Repaly Gain coefficient in the Tag, then Monkey will adjust the volume of the track so that the apparent volume equals the 'Target volume level for Playback' set in Tools > Options> Volume Leveling. I believe that you also need to have the check box 'Level playback Volume' checked in the same Options window. If 'per track' is selected, the adjustment is made based upon the "average" volume of that track alone. If 'per Album' is selected the adjustemnt is made based upon the average volume of all tracks on the Album that the track is from.

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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by nohitter151 » Fri May 29, 2009 7:35 am

Thanks for clarifying my points MMan, you've been spot on with what I meant to say.
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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by GeraldB » Fri May 29, 2009 2:49 pm

I wasn't the original poster, but I gained some new understanding from this thread. Thanks, guys.
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MMan
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Re: Please explain the 'leveling' concept and its implications.

Post by MMan » Fri May 29, 2009 6:02 pm

If I can find some time I'm going to try and put all this on a wiki page. If there are any Monkey developers who see this, if you could answer a couple of the technical implementation questions that I asked in this thread and the one below, that would be helpful in getting it right and all in one place.

http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... &sk=t&sd=a

Thanks in advance if you can help.

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