MediaMonkey using Hardlinks, Junctions and Symbolic Links

[Peke]

There were lots of questions, Wishes, that MediaMonkey support single Track under Multiple Album Collections. Well if you think Linux you would know that it is very easy to set, but in Windows there is big gap of silence even people say that it is possible wel I managed to do that using Link Shell Extension on NTFS Partitions.

Quote from Link Shell Extension link above:

The NTFS file system implemented in NT4, Windows 2000, Windows XP and Windows XP-64 supports a facility known as hard links. Hardlinks provide the ability to keep a single copy of a file yet have it appear in multiple folders (directories). Using standard Windows facilities Hardlinks can only be created at the command prompt, which can be tedious, especially when Hardlinks to multiple files are required or when one only makes occasional use of Hardlinks.

Using Link Shell Extension you can create HardLinks into multiple folders and MediaMonkey will scan detect them as separate tracks in Library and you can therefore use single file HardLinked in all Albums contain that track. This sound great, but as always nothing is perfect and due the fact that HardLinks can be easily corrupted MediaMonkey MUST access all files as read only or there is high risk of Corruption. It looks that there are some improvements in Vista and Windows 7, but as I'm not able to test it for now I can't tell you exactly what changes are.

Much better information can be found on Link Shell Extension site.

NOTE: Use Link Shell Extension on your own risk, I'm just giving you news that something like that is possible especially if someone uses lossless FLAC for Archival/Storage format where several same tracks for multiple albums containing it can take up much HDD space. You can't blame messenger especially if he warned you.

[ZvezdanD]

No, it is not a solution at all. Different albums have different Years, different Track numbers, different Publishers, ...

Why don't you implement support for ASX or XPSF files as I suggested many times before? It could be solution for this.

[gege]

Different albums have different Years, different Track numbers, different Publishers

Although I agree this is not a definitive solution, I'll have to disagree at one point, ZvezdanD.
If one sets the files (or the entire file-system) as read-only, them any modifications made to tracks will be stored IN LIBRARY ONLY. This way, different library entries can contain different data, even if pointing to the same physical file.
Or am I wrong?

[Peke]

Gage, you exactly got my point of this post.

Different Info = MM library only (Including ability to use Linked Album Arts)
Single physical file = All programs will see that file as Media FIle (how do you think that ASX or XPSF file can simulate physical file? You lost me there.)

[ZvezdanD]

If one sets the files (or the entire file-system) as read-only, them any modifications made to tracks will be stored IN LIBRARY ONLY. This way, different library entries can contain different data, even if pointing to the same physical file.

I am sorry, but I don't understand what you want to say. Well, I think that I understand, but I don't know what is connection of your post with the subject "One song - many albums".

[ZvezdanD]

Please, could you tell me what is a point to have some linked file if you don't have different tag/data?

By the way, CorePlayer for mobile phones plays ASX files without any problem, and if you search my post about this theme you would see that many Windows players could reproduce such files as well.

[gege]

Please, could you tell me what is a point to have some linked file if you don't have different tag/data?

I don't have a point on using this. As I said, hardlinks are not a real solution, so we agree at this one.
My argument was just to raise the question that it is TECHNICALLY possible to have different data for linked files, but ONLY in MM's Library, using read-only files, as Peke suggested.
Other than this, ASX files should be the real solution, as you said.

[ZvezdanD]

I am sorry but I still don't understand about "read-only files" part you are talking about. Anyway, this solution is plain wrong. It is limited only to Windows NT generation, I don't know from which version, maybe 2000, maybe XP, but I don't care to know since it is useless for this what we talking about. What if have external disk with audio files and if I want to reproduce that files without a regard which OS have computer on which I want to attach such disk? Those links, junctions, or whatever you call it, could not recognize Linux, neither Mac. Not to mention hardware players. My solution works with smartphones (Symbian and Win Mobile) and probably with some (many?) hardware media players, portable or set-top box. If you want to know which Windows players reproduce such files, take a look on the investigation that I made two years ago, already posted here:

I tried two ASX playlists, one with contained MP3 file and other with OGG file.

Winamp 5.35, The KMPlayer 2.9.3.1309 Beta and GOM Player 2.0.9.3360 play both playlists, but Windows Media Player 8.0 and BSPlayer 1.02.812 play only first with MP3. I suppose this is because I didn't have installed Vorbis DirectShow filter. foobar2000 0.9.4.3, VLC 0.8.6c, Media Player Classic 6.4.9.0 and MV2Player 07 RC2 don't play any ASX file.

I bet that in meantime many of later players added support for it. I just tried VLC 0.9.9 and it now plays both ASX files (with links to MP3 and OGG).

ASX files could contain all tags/data that contains MP3 and other audio files, so data is not stored only in MM database as you suggest. If they cannot do that, I would not suggest them at all.

[Peke]

Sorry, now I understand what you two are saying regarding ASX.

Hardware used:
- 2 PCs in Home network
- Network access and non admin users are limited to read only

Here is what I've constructed for first test:
- Files stored locally all over Server PC (c:\music, d:\backup\Music\, ...) I've made "e:\Music Shared\" folder and it is shared over the network
- Created Junctions for those folders inside "e:\Music Shared\" to have only one Share.

Here is what I've constructed for second test:
- Made one folder "e:\Music Shared\" and put all Queen music
- Made Hardlinks for "Best of",... albums with crosslinked tracks
- Imported Album Art as Folder.jpg
- Updated library info

In both tests Network users were able much easier to access an play those tracks, and could be streamed/shared over UPnP using PS3 (I needed to borrow it from neighbor)

Can someone make me an ASX example of those?

Regarding XSPF, it is something that needs to be revised for future MM versions.

[DazB]

Hi,

Instead of using an existing playlist format (and potentially creating problems down the line) why not simply introduce a specific (XML) format?

07.The Clairvoyant.flac
08.Only The Good Die Young.mmfp
Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son [Remastered].xspf
Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son [Remastered].asx

Daz

[ZvezdanD]

Instead of using an existing playlist format (and potentially creating problems down the line) why not simply introduce a specific (XML) format?

I don't understand. Why inventing some new XML format when we already have two formats for redirection based on XML (ASX and XPFS)?

[ZvezdanD]

Can someone make me an ASX example of those?

You already have an ASX example, but you didn't want to follow a link which I gave you.

Here is one more detailed example. Let say that I have one official album (The Beatles - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band):
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\01 - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\02 - With a Little Help from My Friends
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\03 - Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\04 - Getting Better.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\05 - Fixing a Hole.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\06 - She's Leaving Home.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\07 - Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\08 - Within You, Without You.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\09 - When I'm Sixty-Four.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\10 - Lovely Rita.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\11 - Good Morning, Good Morning.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\12 - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Reprise).mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\13 - A Day in the Life.mp3

Now, let say that I have one compilation (The Beatles - 1967-1970, commonly called the "Blue Album"):
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\01 - Strawberry Fields Forever.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\02 - Penny Lane.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\03 - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\04 - With a Little Help from My Friends.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\05 - Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\06 - A Day in the Life.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\07 - All You Need Is Love.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\08 - I Am the Walrus.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\09 - Hello, Goodbye.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\10 - The Fool on the Hill.mp3
... and so on. I don't need to specify all tracks.

So, instead of the following files:
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\03 - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\04 - With a Little Help from My Friends.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\05 - Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds.mp3
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\06 - A Day in the Life.mp3

I could create 4 small ASX files which have links to corresponding mp3 files in d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\ folder:
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\03 - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.asx
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\04 - With a Little Help from My Friends.asx
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\05 - Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds.asx
d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\1967-1970\06 - A Day in the Life.asx

Here is an example of one ASX file:

Code: Select all

<ASX version = "3.0">
  <TITLE>Simple ASX Demo</TITLE>
  <ENTRY>
    <TITLE>A Day in the Life</TITLE>
    <REF HREF = "d:\Music\Rock\The Beatles\Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band\13 - A Day in the Life.mp3" />
    <PARAM NAME="Track number" VALUE="6" />
    <PARAM NAME="Album" VALUE="1967-1970" />
    <PARAM NAME="Date" VALUE="1973" />
    <PARAM NAME="..." VALUE="..." />
    <PARAM NAME="..." VALUE="..." />
    <PARAM NAME="..." VALUE="..." />
  </ENTRY>
</ASX>

Note values for the Track number, the Album and the Date - those are for the compilation, not for the original album.

You can take a look on ASX reference here: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms910265.aspx

[DazB]

Hi,

...I don't understand. Why inventing some new XML format when we already have two formats for redirection based on XML (ASX and XPFS)?

1. It needs to be more than a mere redirect. A specific file format would allow for storage of the (differing) metadata outside the database - MM could load the data for/from the linked file(s) and then parse the XML.
2. How would MM know which was a regular playlist and which was a redirect when scanning directories?
3. You could use scripting to store data (and/or media formats) that MM doesn't natively support.
4. Even if MM cannot play the file, you could have a linked file it could (with (XML) attributes to tell MM not to add the linked file to the DB). MM would write to the XML file and you could use such as mp3tag to use the data to write it to the real file.

Daz

[ZvezdanD]

It needs to be more than a mere redirect. A specific file format would allow for storage of the (differing) metadata outside the database - MM could load the data for/from the linked file(s) and then parse the XML.

ASX and XPFS files are not mere redirect files. They already could contain all existing metadata which are already stored in MM database and/or audio file tags. With ASX files you could have as many <PARAM NAME > tags as you want. Just take a look on my example from the previous post.

How would MM know which was a regular playlist and which was a redirect when scanning directories?

ASX and XPFS files are not playlists. They could be used as playlists and they could link to more that one track, but they are mainly intended for redirection. MM currently doesn't support those files. I think if they add support for them, they could decide how to use and manipulate with them. But, not matter how they decide to use them, no matter what they store inside of such files, those files still would be playable in all players which support those formats.

You could use scripting to store data (and/or media formats) that MM doesn't natively support.

No, you can't. Especially you cannot use scripting to support some media format which MM doesn't natively support. You need to write an input plug-in for such thing.

Even if MM cannot play the file, you could have a linked file it could (with (XML) attributes to tell MM not to add the linked file to the DB). MM would write to the XML file and you could use such as mp3tag to use the data to write it to the real file.

I really don't understand what you want to say. Could you be more specific?

Anyway, could you tell me at least one good reason why it is better to use some new XML based file format instead of ASX? I gave you one very important reason why it is better to use ASX files - there are numerous hardware and software players which already could play such files, i.e. they could play audio files that are linked within ASX files. We have such situation with ASX files at least, but I don't know any player that supports XPFS format. I remember there was some XPFS plugin for Winamp but I cannot find it anymore.

[DazB]

Hi,

So I couldn't use Quicktime, WMP, VLC or Flash, etc. to play a file in a Web panel?

I know ASX can contain any number of parameter tags, but I would rather have something tailored specifically for the required use. Although the individual files shouldn't be large, you have to loop through all the parameters looking for the right attribute and value - with potentially thousands of files it makes a difference. I could create a 'ghost' set of files, get MM to tag them and then merely copy the metadata files to the machine on which the real files exist; therefore negating transferring gigabytes of music data. Also the files could be used to backup the metadata.

Compatibility with other software isn't the primary consideration, but as it is XML you could simply transform it. The potential for a specific format would even allow such as metadata sharing - a carrot for the devs to dangle to registered users?

ASX and XSPF are primarily playlist formats, maybe such as XMP is worth considering.

Daz