MM4: Ok, that's it?

vpsaxman · Post by **vpsaxman** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:18 pm

Lowlander wrote:taken away that right.

This is exactly what they did. The way the law describes it basically means when you're buying a dvd or a cd, what you're buying is a permanent lease / right to watch / listen to the media as long as you own the physical support.

rovingcowboy · Post by **rovingcowboy** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:13 am

which is why when i make copys i own the original disk and when i put them in the computer as well. it is a copy of the disks. but i keep all disks and albums so you might have guessed i'm boxed in by albums and cd /dvd cases, looks like one
of those houses on the clean house show.

Melloware · Post by **Melloware** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:11 pm

I can't believe this is a 5 page thread arguing over how MM4 "looks". MM is superior in every way to every other Player/Organizer I have ever tried. Its feature set is impressive and seemingly limitless. Yet you guys are arguing it isn't pretty enough?

iTunes isn't pretty either, in fact I think it is one of the worst UI's I have ever seen and the fact it is a FrankenMonster of app delivery, shopping, music player, web browser etc. It is a monstrosity of an application. It's not even an application, it is a suite of applications packaged under one ugly hood. I can't believe people put iTunes on a pedestal as an app to strive for? I teach the junior developers I work with how awful UI's can be and I constantly reference iTunes and some of the laws of usability it violates.

So for my two cents I care about "looks" the least and "features and usability" the most.

Norman24 · Post by **Norman24** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:34 pm

Melloware wrote:I can't believe this is a 5 page thread arguing over how MM4 "looks". MM is superior in every way to every other Player/Organizer I have ever tried. Its feature set is impressive and seemingly limitless. Yet you guys are arguing it isn't pretty enough?

iTunes isn't pretty either, in fact I think it is one of the worst UI's I have ever seen and the fact it is a FrankenMonster of app delivery, shopping, music player, web browser etc. It is a monstrosity of an application. It's not even an application, it is a suite of applications packaged under one ugly hood. I can't believe people put iTunes on a pedestal as an app to strive for? I teach the junior developers I work with how awful UI's can be and I constantly reference iTunes and some of the laws of usability it violates.

So for my two cents I care about "looks" the least and "features and usability" the most.

I couldn't agree more... Well said Melloware....

Sebastian78 · Post by **Sebastian78** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:04 am

Norman24 wrote:
Melloware wrote:I can't believe this is a 5 page thread arguing over how MM4 "looks". MM is superior in every way to every other Player/Organizer I have ever tried. Its feature set is impressive and seemingly limitless. Yet you guys are arguing it isn't pretty enough?

iTunes isn't pretty either, in fact I think it is one of the worst UI's I have ever seen and the fact it is a FrankenMonster of app delivery, shopping, music player, web browser etc. It is a monstrosity of an application. It's not even an application, it is a suite of applications packaged under one ugly hood. I can't believe people put iTunes on a pedestal as an app to strive for? I teach the junior developers I work with how awful UI's can be and I constantly reference iTunes and some of the laws of usability it violates.

So for my two cents I care about "looks" the least and "features and usability" the most.
I couldn't agree more... Well said Melloware....

I actually can't disagree more with what Melloware said. The "looks" has everything to do with usability of ANY piece software. This is where Apple has excelled above all other manufacturers. You can like their design philosophy or dislike it, you can think it's "ugly" or "pretty", it's really all in the eye of the beholder. My point is that Mediamonkey has to cater to "both worlds". Those who don't care how it looks and those that do.

Melloware · Post by **Melloware** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:24 am

Sebastian,

I agree MediaMonkey should strive for both worlds but I think it accomplishes that with its skinning engine. You can make it look anyway you want. They concentrate on features and let users builds skins so they don't have to spend development resources doing it when it can be going into features like UPnP or DLNA etc. Which are much more important in the grand scheme of things.

I guess what I am asking is it sounds like you like the way iTunes looks and acts? Is that a correct assumption? Because you have mentioned Apple products multiple times and that Apple is the goal to strive for etc.

If you are asking MediaMonkey to look and act more like iTunes then I would strongly disagree. I think iTunes is the exact opposite thing to strive for. The more MediaMonkey is not like iTunes the better.

Also iTunes is not skinnable correct? You just get the default Mac Cocoa look and feel. So if that is the case you are saying you like the Mac Cocoa look and feel?

I guess I am just confused as to what you think MediaMonkey should be doing differently for UI? I believe someone has already made an "iTunes Skin" so MediaMonkey looks like iTunes. Wouldn't that be sufficient for your needs?

http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15949

vpsaxman · Post by **vpsaxman** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:24 am

That's not it. You reduced the thread to one player = iTunes. And even then, however bloated and dated graphically it is, it still looks more polished than MM (see this post http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... 15#p283009).

Also, you put graphics and performance in the same bag. The simple UI of iTunes is not what makes it bloated, it's the rest. It's not fair to mix the way it looks and the fact that it's Apple's storefront and other BS in a thread talking mostly about MM UI. One could argue in response to this argument that a better skinning engine should have been implemented before video support.

Finally, there are tons of better looking players, mostly because skinners have more options to work with. The problem is not whether to let skinners build skins or not but rather how much they can do with the limitations of the skinning engine. Considering the hard work of a few skinners on this forum and how far they have pushed the current skinning engine, considering skins - similarly to scripts - are part of what makes MM popular and the fact that as far as I know skinners don't get paid for their work, the bare minimum as a sign of gratitude would be to give them the features they request.

I'm sure MM would largely extend its user base if it could be skinned like foobar for example.

Melloware · Post by **Melloware** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:16 am

vpsaxman wrote:That's not it. You reduced the thread to one player = iTunes. And even then, however bloated and dated graphically it is, it still looks more polished than MM

I guess we will have to agree to disagree because nothing about iTunes feels more polished than MM. UI included. UI especially.

I know the thread you posted mentions things like "alpha blending" and icon sharpness etc. I guess my eye is not that finely tuned because I don't notice these things nor does MM make me gasp in horror when I look at it.

So I guess my point is this: Are the UI quirks you mention enough for you to stop using MM? If the answer is NO then you have answered your own question about how important these features are and whether development resources should be thrown at them. If your answer is YES well then you think MM features don't make it stand alone and that the UI look and feel trumps feature set. That is simply all i am saying, and we can agree to disagree.

vpsaxman · Post by **vpsaxman** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:44 am

Melloware wrote:Are the UI quirks you mention enough for you to stop using MM? If the answer is NO then you have answered your own question about how important these features are and whether development resources should be thrown at them. If your answer is YES well then you think MM features don't make it stand alone and that the UI look and feel trumps feature set. That is simply all i am saying, and we can agree to disagree.

Actually, yes and no. I use both MM and foobar.

The discussion between features vs aesthetics is an age old one. It's similar to inside vs outside beauty of a person. My take on it : body & soul, I want it all!

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:00 pm

Sebastian78 wrote:My point is that Mediamonkey has to cater to "both worlds". Those who don't care how it looks and those that do.

I actually care how it looks. And I still think MM looks good!

All I personally would want are some (Okay... WAY...!) more skins. Beside DreadM's Vision Theme, there are not many good dark coloured themes. That's just my personal taste, but more choices are always better I think, and no one will disagree, I guess!

Eyal · Post by **Eyal** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:05 pm

...

What's all about? Have you all forgotten about beauty of simplicity?

vpsaxman wrote:It's similar to inside vs outside beauty of a person. My take on it : body & soul, I want it all!

It's just impossible... You have to choose one or another. Otherwise you become a monster, or a bipolar creature.

:~)

vpsaxman · Post by **vpsaxman** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:27 am

Eyal wrote:...

What's all about? Have you all forgotten about beauty of simplicity?

vpsaxman wrote:It's similar to inside vs outside beauty of a person. My take on it : body & soul, I want it all!
It's just impossible... You have to choose one or another. Otherwise you become a monster, or a bipolar creature.

:~)

How about a healthy spirit in an healthy body? Nature is harmonious, beautiful to look at (the golden proportion anyone?) and has to be healthy to be so. We should strive for this kind of harmony as , you know, well, it's just natural.

Heheh, "beauty of simplicity" you say :

But I'll let things run their course...

rovingcowboy · Post by **rovingcowboy** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:24 am

for crying out loud people stop it already. gee.

you like that he likes this she likes that other way, they like this other way.

its all up the the person using the program, as i said before thats why i try to make as many
different skins as possible.

i'm upset at the other skinners to a point but i never say any thing to them any more, cause its up to them
on what they want to make, i've gotten use to the only one that does theme skins. but since i am not making
anymore mm 4 skins only trying to update my mm 3 skins to work in mm 4, i was hoping some of the others
with mm 4 and win 7 would take up the task of making some pleasing skins for every one.

with that in mind you can see the whole point of the gui is to please every one by having a choice of gui fronts to use.

so stop with the this is better then that. all of us skinners get that you all like different things.

but please feel free to learn how to skin mediamonkey and make your own ideas in to real user gui's for every one
that will get tons of people using mediamonkey because they will all like a skin at some point that was made by one
of the other users that is you, whom started making skins. its not hard to make them it really is not.

how many times have i said that before? about 100 i think. but it is just like putting new photos on the back of playing
cards. you just skinned those cards with new photos.

you have to learn the in's and out's of the theme engine for mediamonkey skins. i've given you a fast walkthrough on
how to make the theme mskn file and some other walkthroughs on the players the other skinners here have made
walkthroughs that you read to learn if that is how you need to learn. mine are learn as you do walk through's

rusty has made the list of items to use in skins and others have updated it so it is getting very detailed info on it there
you can read that if you need too.
but reading and doing them all will get you taught very well in how to make the mm 3 skins. and we are using the same
theme engine for mm 4 skins there is just some new tricks you can add in mm 4. so you will have to ask one of the
skinners here making mm 4 skins for that list of tricks. any other help for items not said in the theme engine just ask for
or find another skin you see has that item in and take it apart to see how it was done.

so doing all that
and making your idea for the best skin
and making it able for other user's to download.
will be best to express your ideas as pictures are worth a thousand words.

but check in to the cool down room on this my idea is better or that program is better posting.

and do something useful on your idea make it a skin.

yes the learning curve is a long one on the skins if you are use to make tough skins like modern winamp skins.
because you will need to relearn the classic style of winamp skins and combine winamp modern with it,
then you will see its the way mediamonkey is skinned. there are six player skins now and one theme/explorer style shell skin.
for mediamonkey skin files.

theme skin is the windows style shell skin.

main player is connected with the theme but it is made in its own file.

floating player / called mini player in mediamonkey program, is made like the main player but is like the modern winamp to a point which is it floats on the screen unconnected to the shell/theme.

full screen player is for video use when you view them in mm 4 and it does not use all the same features as the main player.
this is of course not needed in mm 3 skins.

task bar player called micro player in the mediamonkey program, is in need of two player files one for horizontal and one for vertical
the proper one will show according to which way you have the task bar viewed on your screen.

so there you have it those are all you need to learn to skin.
and the hardest one with the most images is the theme skin, you learn it you got most the know how on making the skins learned.

SO GET OUT THERE AND MAKE YOUR IDEAS IN TO SKINS

i'm sure 90% of us memebers would rather view new skins then images of other programs skins and be told they are better
then our's because of this or that.
its easy to fall in to that trap of who's better,

but its more rewarding to make your own skin and share it with others that might like it.

as said yes it takes time to learn it took me about a solid week of every day to get most the quarks of the theme engine down.
but the more skins you do the faster you get at them, and then you can just change images with your new ideas.
i was making 4 or 5 skins a week there when i was making them. it only takes me 4 hours of making the ones with very little design changes to the layouts.

the harder ones like concert sking took me solid 72 or more hours to get it and tweak the images.

you don't have to make those hard ones just make them how you can or as simple as you want.
BUT MAKE SOME NEW SKINS and stop bashing mediamonkey's look.

or risk the long posting of mine again.

Sebastian78 · Post by **Sebastian78** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:30 am

@vpsaxman: What's THAT....that looks....Amazing! Simple, clean, intuitive and it presents albums in a better way than any skin I've seen for MM.

@Rowingmadman....eh cowboy: It's just a discussion and everyone who uses MM is entitled to his or hers opinion.

I DON'T use iTunes. Why?

a) It set up to be as propriety as possible. All settings are there to route everything in a way to fit how Apple does business
b) It's bloated
c) Unskinnable

But I like the simplicity of it and would like a "toggle switch" for MM for a) Simple View b) Advanced view. I HOPED this would be possible with tabs in 4, but alas.

Mediamonkey is fast, it's "clean", it's continually updated, it's skinnable, it's user adjustable and it's got a lot of features.

If I was to boil down my "gripes" about MM it would be:

Looks - ie lack of skins/lack of skin location on this website: Even with a skin, I still feel the main outadet look is just beneath the surface of MM.

I'll continue using and loving MM as before, but you always hate the ones you love the most...right?

PS: Seems as somebody has figured out what a real monkey looks like...

Sebastian78 · Post by **Sebastian78** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:23 am

SOLUTION:

I think the first and MOST important step for skinners and whiners like me is a "SKIN REPOSITORY". I think that would even benefit the developers.

Suggestion:

- A repository for ALL skins where skins are either alphabetical or listed by popularity.
- Searchable/scrollable with screenshots of the actual skin.
- Easy way to find updates to skins you are using.

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