Navigation [#15074]

Report bugs & feature requests for MediaMonkey 5 and learn about the newest builds.

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kbeck
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Navigation [#15074]

Post by kbeck » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:15 pm

This probably won't be a popular post. I've had a Gold license since early v2 or something and I've spent an hour trying to get around in 5 and know less know than I did before. Saying I'm not a fan is a huge understatement. I wanted to do a simple task....rename a couple of albums. There seems to be no more sub-tree structure for Albums, Artists, Classifications??

Never thought I would see the day when I had to look for another media software but looks like that day is approaching. Don't see myself ever using 5.

Peke
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Re: Navigation

Post by Peke » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:14 pm

Hi,
MM5 is just differently organized and more prone to customization than MMW.

ADD SampleScripts\showAllNodes.mmip plugin using Tools -> Extensions and you will get back your feature.
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Pavle
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Barry4679
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Re: Navigation

Post by Barry4679 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:21 am

kbeck wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:15 pm
This probably won't be a popular post.
You should be OK :D ... I think that it is an important post.

My 1st impression of MM5 was similar to yours. ... It was hard to find my way around the MM5 interface. It appeared very modal, with confusion due to viewing options being available here, but not available there. It doesn't help that the View has become somewhat depreciated, with many choices not available in the menu. The sort, filter and power-scroll options are hard to fathom.

It becomes more familiar if you are motivated enough to put some work into orientating yourself. It is worthwile doing this because the newly added features are really very good.

It is important to take note of the 1st impression. I agree with you; it is not positive.

I don't think that the team are doing themselves a favour by not providing a "new feature" and a "how-to" cheat sheet ... hopefully this will be available before it goes to beta.

I think think the MM5 UI is more complex than it was in MM4 ... This is good in most instances IMO, but it is bad at first. The product really needs some functional walk-through videos before it is released. ... It is a bit of a worry that this has not been a MM strong point in the past.

Peke wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:14 pm
MM5 is [..snip..] prone to customization than MMW.
I am not so excited about this. ... I am hoping to run a vanilla version of MM5.

Watching the type of bugs that are getting squashed in just the vanilla alpha, I am concerned that customisation is going to lead to some unstablity ... eg. when MM5 is left waiting for something that will never happen ... or lack of context being passed between vanilla and custom panels, or strange things happening with the backbar, etc
kbeck wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:15 pm
There seems to be no more sub-tree structure for Albums, Artists, Classifications??
BTW I am no longer missing these sub-nodes in the Media Tree. I did use them all the time too, but they often lead to too much scrolling down the Media Tree.

It is worth trying to use MM5 in the manner the designers intended.

The new way of doing this is better IMO. YourNode>Location which gives you a grid matrix, rather than a whooping long vertical list, which required you to expand the width of the Media Tree, just so you could tell 'John Cale" from "John Mayall"

nb: if you have too many clicks from Node>Location to get to your top folder, you can use a new feature to Pin that top folder to the Media Tree, so that your navigation is just a single click way, from the now nice short Media tree.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jzqm3p47xtse7 ... s.png?dl=0

Or you could add the feature back, as Peke explained.

jiri
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Re: Navigation

Post by jiri » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:04 am

Nicely summarized by Barry. Just a bit clarification from me:

re. Customization - I agree that MM5 should work out of box for most users. While the customization options are great, they should be needed only in some cases. And that's the way we try to tune the MM5 UI.

re. Tree nodes - While we got quite some negative feedback re. removal of the tree nodes hierarchy, I still believe that it was a good decision and that most users will eventually like it (as evidenced by Barry). That said, we'll keep supporting the showAllNodes script, so that those who really need the nodes can keep using them.

Jiri

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Re: Navigation

Post by Peke » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:05 pm

Hi,
In order to further confirm Jiri clarifications I've added To-Do so that we can improve MM5 experience further.

It is very hard to abandon UI that you got used to over past 15+ years, but like Berry said gain is well worth an effort to invest in next 15 years.

I also agree with Jiri that nicely put feedbacks like these are welcomed and encouraged.
Best regards,
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Davo
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Re: Navigation

Post by Davo » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:19 am

In the media tree i cannot select a group of items but in the browser i can. Is this the expected behaviour?
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Peke
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Re: Navigation

Post by Peke » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:52 pm

Yes, it was always like that.
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kbeck
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Re: Navigation

Post by kbeck » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:19 pm

I appreciate all the remarks. I will give it another go. I did see some good things but became too frustrated by the lack of nav aids. I learned long ago to make all edits in MM and with a large database (250K+) I can't get slowed down by Album Art I don't recognize.

Barry4679
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Re: Navigation

Post by Barry4679 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:31 am

I fired up MM5 so I could post an illustration of YourNode>Location in List View, but I see that List View is not available there .... this is an example of what I mean about MM5 being very modal, which increases disorientation

Suggestions:

It would be good if List view was available in the location node (ie. maybe for someone who finds the art was distracting, or where the art was slow arriving)

It would be good of the Column Browser was usable in the Location node. ... eg. filter locations to show just those which contain (at that level, or somewhere within contained sub-folders) tracks with Genre tagged as "xxxx", ... and 2nd Column Browser column could narrow the filter ... eg. to just those with "xxxx" genre tracks released in the 1970's, etc etc

It would be good if the Column Browser allowed inclusion of a few columns constructed from the path property ... eg: if I am at YourNode>Location>Network>Share> ... then a Path#1 column in the Column Browser could list any first level sub-folders in that share, and then a path2 column in the column Browser could list all folders within the selected first level sub-path, etc

Ludek
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Re: Navigation

Post by Ludek » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:25 am

Barry4679 wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:31 am
I fired up MM5 so I could post an illustration of YourNode>Location in List View, but I see that List View is not available there .... this is an example of what I mean about MM5 being very modal, which increases disorientation

Suggestions:

It would be good if List view was available in the location node (ie. maybe for someone who finds the art was distracting, or where the art was slow arriving)
I see 'List View' available in all Location subnodes:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/myeuuu8xfxn5y ... 4.png?dl=0

Or are you refering Location node itself? I see that in MM4 it shows all tracks in the collection, isn't this what 'All tracks' node does?

BMF
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Re: Navigation

Post by BMF » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:34 am

I can see the 'list view' under 'location' (as a part of each collection branch) too. And i see it in the 'folder' part, where the computer environment with its hdds and network details is shown.

That said i have to admit that the navigation isn't as easy as i navigate through MM4. Especially i haven't discovered the rules yet, when or where i find what kind of views. sometimes i expect a grid view or an album/tracks view but i cannot choose it from where i am located. So i would agree with Barry's judgement of 'disorientation' :o .
nothing but a bmf ....
--------------------------
Windows 10 Professional (64 Bit); MM 4 (lifetime licence);
iPod Classic, Sonos

Barry4679
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Re: Navigation

Post by Barry4679 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:01 am

Ludek wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:25 am
I see 'List View' available in all Location subnodes:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/myeuuu8xfxn5y ... 4.png?dl=0
Sorry, I didn't read it carefully enough ... it says that it is "list" view, but what it shows (on my machine) is something like what is named "Art" view elsewhere in MM5. .... ie. It looks different to what you see. ... I see a thumbnail for each of my artist folders ... if I open one, I see the artist's album folders .. also in art matrix format.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8b0sydy8351ve ... e.png?dl=0
Ludek wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:25 am
I see that in MM4 it shows all tracks in the collection, isn't this what 'All tracks' node does?
Maybe ... but the topic under discussion is the learning curve required for MM5 navigation.

I actually like the display that I see ... but was arguing that there should also be the one you see(for people distracted by the art, or where the art was slow arriving)

It would be good if the Location node had both, even though an MM5-experienced user may be able to achieve the same thing via AllTracks.

DaKo
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Re: Navigation

Post by DaKo » Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:50 pm

I can very much understand the thread starter. I very often want to go to a specific artist and see all tracks of this artist.

Currently, MM5 uses "Grid view" as standard for the artists. I then have to click on the artist (or type the name and click on it) which opens the albums of the artist in a "dropdown menu". To get all tracks of this artist I have to click on the artist name (to the left of the play button) in this dropdown menu. However, the standard in the next window is "Album grid" which doesn't list all tracks directly, so I have to switch the view to "Tracklist". All in all this took much more steps than in MM4.

With "showAllNodes.mmip" it's more convenient for me, but the performance is not that great because it takes around two seconds (MM4 is much more responsive here) when typing the first two or three characters of the artist name (I currently have 725 artists).

Ludek
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Re: Navigation

Post by Ludek » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:49 am

Barry4679 wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:01 am
Ludek wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:25 am
I see 'List View' available in all Location subnodes:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/myeuuu8xfxn5y ... 4.png?dl=0
Sorry, I didn't read it carefully enough ... it says that it is "list" view, but what it shows (on my machine) is something like what is named "Art" view elsewhere in MM5. .... ie. It looks different to what you see. ... I see a thumbnail for each of my artist folders ... if I open one, I see the artist's album folders .. also in art matrix format.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8b0sydy8351ve ... e.png?dl=0
Ludek wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:25 am
I see that in MM4 it shows all tracks in the collection, isn't this what 'All tracks' node does?
Maybe ... but the topic under discussion is the learning curve required for MM5 navigation.

I actually like the display that I see ... but was arguing that there should also be the one you see(for people distracted by the art, or where the art was slow arriving)

It would be good if the Location node had both, even though an MM5-experienced user may be able to achieve the same thing via AllTracks.
And have you tried to disable the 'Subfolders' sub-view like this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3whsh3lnvhvhb ... 9.png?dl=0
The 'Subfolders' sub-view is what you are calling 'Art' view. Disabling the sub-view is making the interface like MM4 is.

Barry4679
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Re: Navigation

Post by Barry4679 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:17 am

I could not get MM5 locations to work if subfolders was disabled ... ie. I can navigate from EntireLibrary>Location ... I can see icon for Network and one for Youtube. ... but if I click on network it returns just an empty tracklist ... I have no icons to allow me to navigate any further downwards

OTOH if I turn Subfolders on; starting at EntireLibrary>Location ... I can see Network etc again ... I click Network, and this time I see an icon for my NAS... click again, I get get icon for my Share ... click again, I see the matrix of folder thumbnails that I posted an image of before

I see now that if I then toggle subfolder off, and then go back up to the breadcrumbs menu, and click on my NAS ... I can then see the view that you posted.

So my problem is that I get no way to navigate down if subfolders is disabled. ... ie. in a Nework>NAS>Share situation where my folders are below that

You can replicate that?

A couple of other things ... at EntireLibrary>Location the toolbar does not have controls to toggle subfolder off|on ... those toolbar items don't appear until you get inside Network, so if subfolders is toggled on, you get the icon for the NAS and an empty tracks list ... and if you toggle the subfolders check off at that stage, using the downdown menu control (see purple arrow in image below) (ie. using the open in the dropdown menu with Column Browser & Subfolders & ManageViews) what happens is the NAS icon disappears, and the file list is entirely empty ... ie. you can't navigate downwards
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4xomzayhxv0jz ... e.png?dl=0

I now see that the toolbar button for this purpose works properly, so it is just the menu option which is broken .... I see that you are on an unreleased version because your tool bar buttons are in a different sequence to 2120 (see image image above) ... so maybe your version has fixed some of these issues

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