Alphabetic search in MM ?

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Davo
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Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Davo » Sun May 26, 2019 1:54 pm

Can MM do a simple alphabetic search rather than finding the first occurrence of a letter(s)?
My Artist tag is first name - last name. So i want to be able to search alphabetically on the first name.
David
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Ludek
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Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Ludek » Mon May 27, 2019 7:29 am

Hi, can you please elaborate what you do mean by "simple alphabetic search" ?

What kind of search are you referring?
Contextual search set to "Filter matches" or "Scroll to matches" ? Which view (List view, Grid view, Albums & Tracks) ?
Or a global search (entire library) via search bar?

Davo
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Location: Australia

Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Davo » Mon May 27, 2019 7:39 pm

Ludek
I didn't realise there were so many variables. Is there a guide for this somewhere?

For my purposes lets say it's the Grid View & the Media tree and i have selected the 'Artist node in my Classical Library

By 'simple' i mean - I want to jump directly to the artists whose first name starts with 'L' say i'm looking for London Symphony or maybe London Philharmonic because i can't remember which. So i type 'L' in the query box (at the left of screen) in the grid it finds the first occurrence of 'L' which is Consort of London. In the Media tree nothing happens. Which leads me to think that the Media tree & the Grid are not in sync when it comes to searches?
David
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Barry4679
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Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Barry4679 » Tue May 28, 2019 12:40 am

Davo wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:39 pm
By 'simple' i mean - I want to jump directly to the artists whose first name starts with 'L' say i'm looking for London Symphony or maybe London Philharmonic because i can't remember which. So i type 'L' in the query box (at the left of screen) in the grid it finds the first occurrence of 'L' which is Consort of London. In the Media tree nothing happens. Which leads me to think that the Media tree & the Grid are not in sync when it comes to searches?
Hi Davo,

pardon me for butting in.

MM5 vanilla has no sub-nodes in the Media Tree ... eg. the Media Tree entry does not expand to list all the artists like in it did in MM4.

You can work around this by using an add-on script ... which I assume that you have done ... but from what you are saying, the Media Tree add-on, and the Grid, are not in two way sync with each other ... this is a downside with add-on scripts IMO ... maybe they can fix it in this case, and they are likely to be less robust, and less tested, than the original design

The original design removed the sub-nodes, presumably because the designers had improved MM5 searching and filtering facilities, making the sub-nodes redundant in their opinion.

I have resisted installing the add-on, and after some time with MM5, I find that I agree with them.

Improvements; in what Ludek calls contextual search:
  • MM5 integrates searching and filtering into a single UI action ... ie just type something, into a grid or list when not focused into a specific track cell, and MM5 either scrolls or filters ... you can toggle between these two actions via the Tools|OptionsLibrary|Search ... no need to find a menu item to initiate the search action ... just type a search value
  • are available from everywhere, not just in Media Tree
  • the scrolling action has improved because it now word based, and not fixed just upon the first letters in the name ... eg. you typed "london" and got "Consort of London", as well as any names starting with "London"
  • And for many use cases, the filter action is best, because it delivered the Consort and the Symphony and the Philharmonic, all from the one action, without need to scroll to each
  • you can scroll on any tag ... it uses the primary sort tag for the display ... eg. re-sort an artist sequenced display to album sequence, and the display now scrolls based upon the album tag
The implementation is not optimal IMO ... See post update below. once you have supplied a search string you should be able to toggle between scroll|filter, using the search control which is opened in the tools bar, without having to screw around finding out where the search config options are hidden among the Tools|Options| stuff ... and also when in scroll mode, the tool bar search widget should display the tag name that it is searching, as it is not obvious.

[UPDATE] .... Ignore the 1st point in above paragraph. I was out of date ... I see that you can now toggle between scroll and filter modes ... I updated the following diagram

https://www.dropbox.com/s/slmluf6xqbd96 ... r.png?dl=0

Davo wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:39 pm
I didn't realise there were so many variables. Is there a guide for this somewhere?
Ha! :lol:

No guide to how anything works ... nor any guide to what MM5 is capable of.

It is a problem atm.

I have the fear that they think that it is intuitive.

I don't think so ... I think that it is good ... but in multiple places it is unexpected and not yet well indicated.

eg. A person wants filter or search ...they go to the View menu .... nothing
they then go to the Edit menu ... they see Search and Advanced Search ... seems that this is what MM5 offers
The answer is Yes and NO ... ie. those two search facilities are something entirely separate to what is illustrated above
  • they are a global facility, not confined by the current view
  • have a filter mode, but not a scroll mode
  • not affected much of the Tools|OptionsLibrary|Search options
  • [Update: I now see that the search syntax is available in both search types] has a search syntax with options extending what is described above
A set of instruction videos could a good fix, maybe?
Last edited by Barry4679 on Tue May 28, 2019 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Davo
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Location: Australia

Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Davo » Tue May 28, 2019 3:01 am

Thanks Barry
I was using the Media Tree addon but i've now uninstalled it just to simplify things.
As you pointed out the search is more word based so i see if i type "artist:Borodin" in the album & tracks view it finds & puts in focus all artists starting with Borodin. So far so good.
However if i change the view to Grid with the same search it finds nothing???
What i want is an alphabetic search in all views - First letter First name (ie start of string)
Other media managers can do this.
David
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Barry4679
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Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Barry4679 » Tue May 28, 2019 4:27 am

Davo wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:01 am
However if i change the view to Grid with the same search it finds nothing???
I hadn't noticed that. ... Hopefully it is just a bug. It looks like the search syntax commands have not been implemented for Grid mode.

Ludek
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Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Ludek » Tue May 28, 2019 7:03 am

So i type 'L' in the query box (at the left of screen) in the grid it finds the first occurrence of 'L' which is Consort of London
This was intentional (per item 2 here: https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=15185 ) so that searching for 'hole' finds 'fixing a hole'.
Or searching for 'Dorfmeister' finds 'Kruder & Dorfmeister', etc.

I wonder what do you see as a downside of current behaviour? Typing just 'L' mostly isn't enough to find what you are searching anyhow, so specifying two more letters filters the results enough to find what you are looking for?
e.g. typing 'lo' shows "Jennifer Lopez", "Johny Logan", "Louis Armstrong",
So one can type one more letter like 'Lou' to show just "Louis Armstrong" or just "lop" to show "Jennifer Lopez".

If we would change the behaviour then the cons are more significant, because searching for "lopez" wouldn't find "Jennifer Lopez"!

Davo
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Location: Australia

Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Davo » Wed May 29, 2019 12:05 am

Ludek
I think i need to clarify.
I don't have a big issue with the current search behaviour. I am looking for something additional. eg: a shortcut to find & focus in the Grid view & other views all artists (or Albums etc) based on the first letter in the string (ie Alphabetic)
I suspect that you will now ask me why do i want to do this, so i will explain:-
I don't always know exactly what i'm searching for, but i may know it starts with " L" so if i can bring all the artists starting with "L" into focus then i can quickly scan thru them (visually) to find what i am looking for. This is also an aid to editing, so for example i may have typed "Lupez" instead of ""Lopez"

Plex for example has an alphabetic sidebar which allows you to do this. Foobar also will search on first letter in a string.
David
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dtsig
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Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by dtsig » Wed May 29, 2019 9:24 am

I use the Scroll To feature for this purpose ... i know there is a band that starts with be but can't remember the name. I enter be and it takes me to Beach Boys (fair) but from there I can scroll down
Where's the db and ini stored
Reporting Bugs
Where tags are stored

Not affiliated with MediaMonkey ... just a RABID user/lover
DTSig

Ludek
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Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Ludek » Wed May 29, 2019 11:08 am

I don't always know exactly what i'm searching for, but i may know it starts with " L" so if i can bring all the artists starting with "L" into focus then i can quickly scan thru them (visually) to find what i am looking for. This is also an aid to editing, so for example i may have typed "Lupez" instead of ""Lopez"
I see, maybe we should make it a little be tricky and whenever only one or two letters are entered ('L' or 'Lo') then it would scroll to artists starting with 'Lo' , but when three (or more letters are entered) like 'Lop' or 'Lopez' then it would rather scroll to "Jennifer Lopez" , what do you think??
i.e. it would be combination of both behaviours based on the length of the entered phrase.

Davo
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Location: Australia

Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Davo » Wed May 29, 2019 6:09 pm

@ DTSig
[quoteII use the Scroll To feature for this purpose ... ][/quote]
I cannot replicate this. I have tried this in the Grid View, Album & Tracks & List views, in fact i get a different search result in each view?? & none of those results are anywhere near 'Beach Boys'.

@ Ludek
Well that is interesting & would probably work for me, as long as it was searching for the 'start of string' not 'in the string'
David
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Barry4679
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Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Barry4679 » Wed May 29, 2019 8:42 pm

Ludek wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:08 am
I see, maybe we should make it a little be tricky and whenever only one or two letters are entered ('L' or 'Lo') then it would scroll to artists starting with 'Lo' , but when three (or more letters are entered) like 'Lop' or 'Lopez' then it would rather scroll to "Jennifer Lopez" , what do you think??
i.e. it would be combination of both behaviours based on the length of the entered phrase.

That sounds a seductive and neat idea, but isn't MM5 becoming overloaded with "magic" functions like this? ... ie. "magic" being a user convenience function, that delivers something useful in some special case, as well as hiding some background complexity ... but has the problem that it is a surprise and doesn't conform to established convention, and is likely to cause initial confusion, and also frustration when someone knows that they saw it once, but can't remember how they triggered it. Also disappointment because it works in situation A, but the same magic is not available in situation B.

Examples in MM5: status bar initially hidden, cannot be fount in View or Appearance settings, hidden behind the click of a spinning wheel ... or do a single sync of tracks from GPM, and you also get some magic playlists, indistinguishable from others, but which are auto-synced back to GPM if you touch them ... or search using the menu or the rhs of the tool bar, and the search is global, but the search in the middle of the toolbar is a magic contextual search. ... or when I am in context search, you now give me a clue how to switch to global, but nothing in the reverse situation.

I have two alternative suggestions.

1. Extend the search syntax. Add something like |lo, or maybe ^lo, which would restrict the search to the beginning of the tag ... at least this way the syntax rules will be documented in your popup tool tip


2. [UPDATE: I corrected a typo where I caused confusion by saying "sort" instead of "search" ] Or better, expand the search config thing, shown here. ..... Make it more obvious ... ie. a small toolbar button saying "Configure Search", instead of the drop down control ... have it display a config popup dbox to unify the two search options ... surface all search configuration in one place where they are needed ... and to make obvious all the facilities and the "magic" options.

Example: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ue1xa4w0pa20y ... l.png?dl=0
  • #1 appears only when ckeck box set to scroll mode ... if they they click on "Album", they get a list of other visible columns, and a warning saying that it will cause the view to be re-sorted
  • #2 appears only when check box set to filter mode:
  • and tool tips everywhere explaining the difference between scroll|filter .. and examples illustrating "any word" search vs "beginning of tag" ... etc etc
-------

And Ludek, did you see this? ... it looks like a bug. I can replicate. It looks like the sort syntax has not been implemented in grid view. ... bug? ... can be fixed?
Davo wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:01 am
i see if i type "artist:Borodin" in the album & tracks view it finds & puts in focus all artists starting with Borodin. So far so good.
However if i change the view to Grid with the same search it finds nothing???
Last edited by Barry4679 on Thu May 30, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Davo
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Location: Australia

Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Davo » Wed May 29, 2019 9:09 pm

@Barry
Your Option 2 makes a lot of sense.
David
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Ludek
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Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Ludek » Thu May 30, 2019 6:39 am

Sure, adding another config is a solution, but I am not keen of adding too many options -- as mostly users won't realize that the configs exist anyway, or rather wouldn't understand the configs/wording.

e.g. the Barry's configs proposal is quite unclear to me
"Configure Sort" - why "configure sort" ? There is nothing related to sorting -- or am I missing something ??
Also on these screenshot: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ue1xa4w0pa20y ... l.png?dl=0
I am totally confused what the individual configs mean -- or what do you mean by them? Maybe a clearer wording would help, but it would be clearer just for someone -- and not for the others etc.

Therefore I still believe that an automatic compromise mostly works better for users that are bored (or bothered) by many configs -- and by trying to find what the individual configs mean or should do to meet their needs.

Related note: With too many options also the debugging and maintenance is harder, as we need to test all the possible configurations. And to replicate a bug ask user for the exact configuration state etc.

I re-opened the issue here:
https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view ... 185#c53659
to implement the "automatic" approach for 2179 -- we can add a config for it later (once it is found as needed or based on feedback/experience)

Davo
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Location: Australia

Re: Alphabetic search in MM ?

Post by Davo » Thu May 30, 2019 7:46 pm

@Ludek
Do you intend to also raise an issue re inconsistent search results in the views which may indicate a bug (see previous posts)
David
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