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MM5 contextual search could learn something from Sonos (?)

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:21 am
by Barry4679
Like MM, Sonos have implemented an any-word, multi-tag search facility.

eg. in Sonos if I want to browse to my Jacqueline du Pré albums, I just type "du p" ... I get a grid of results, with tabs for Artists, or Albums, Composers, or Songs, Or Genres ... useful if you are like me, and can't spell Jacqueline or Pré, or have forgotten hers 1st name, etc

Firstly I can use the tabs to quickly focus on what I am looking for

In the album tab, see how Sonos is helping me to refine and improve my searching technique given the results from my own collection.

In Sonos I can quickly get to my 25 albums where she is the Album Artist, or the 7 albums with her name in the album title.

Compare this to MM5 ... the same search string ("du p"), over the same collection initially returned me 750+ albums (!)

So some detective work is required:
  • 2,000+ tracks ... my nas name is "NAS-Pxxxxxxxxx" ... and the P is partially satisfying the search criteria ... so I alter the MM5 default to turn path search off
  • 900 tracks ... still too many ... I have created a Genre named "Classical - Solo Piano" ... it is satisfying the "p" again ... so turn I off genre search also
OK, those are now fixed forever, but there are still too many tracks ... 700 tracks ... ie. my 25 albums of her albums, plus another 150 albums, which are acting like a fog obscuring my target

It is like a game of "Where's Wally" trying to see why MM has returned many of these results.

What could MM learn from Sonos.

I find that I get results quicker with Sonos.

1. Show me why you returned these tracks, as illustrated above ... that way I can learn how to improve my searching technique, and adjust it for the tags in my collection.

2. Consider constraining search results to just where the search criteria "words" are all within the one tag ... ie. you returned 600 tracks like this, which are not helping me

3. The search setting for the "path" tag could be switched off by default ... MM5 UI is hard enough to learn ... it would be better if you didn't start off by returning search results that I didn't expect.

Re: MM5 contextual search could learn something from Sonos (?)

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:02 am
by Ludek
Hi, yes, I personally would not expect that searching for "du p" returns anything useful.

Maybe just typing a little more like "du pre" would give you the expected results?

I personally don't see the Sono's way of searching as better.
In MM5 I can just type "nouv band" when I want to find tracks by artist "Nouvelle Vague" from album "Bande a part" (just because I don't remember exact spelling of neither the album and the artist).
I guess this won't work with Sonos?

Re: MM5 contextual search could learn something from Sonos (?)

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:07 am
by Barry4679
Ludek wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:02 am
Maybe just typing a little more like "du pre" would give you the expected results?
"du pre" returns tracks from my 25 Du Pre albums, plus 31 tracks from 16 other non-related albums.

btw I was typing only "du p" because I got intimidated by the é, which I can achieve via cut&paste, but have no idea how to get there with my English keyboard :oops:

Ludek wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:02 am
I personally don't see the Sono's way of searching as better.
I would not have thought so either ... but as I said in this post today, I use the Sonos and the MM5 approach in parallel, all day every day .... and found that the Sonos approach actually works better for me, for the type of queries that i normally do.

Ludek wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:02 am
In MM5 I can just type "nouv band" when I want to find tracks by artist "Nouvelle Vague" from album "Bande a part" (just because I don't remember exact spelling of neither the album and the artist).
I guess this won't work with Sonos?
No, Sonos can't do that.

btw even if MM5 had the sonos approach, you could still achieve that in MM5 with "artist:nouv band"
But there is no syntax, in MM5, to achieve what I was trying to do.

I can't even do "artist:du pre" without also getting all these false hits

Is no big deal ... MM5 search|filter is a heap better than MM4 ... just saying, that for me, with admittedly short search strings, the Sonos approach worked out to get less false hits fogging the results.

And I also liked that in Sonos I could see why a track was returned ... whereas in MM5 I spend a lot of time thinking "why did it return all those tracks? ... what am I doing wrong?"

I guess it is not worth it, but this would be nice to have, and would have helped me to learn MM5 contextual search quicker:
  • a tooltip over a search result row, that said something like 'matched because "Nouvelle Vague" "Bande a part" '

Re: MM5 contextual search could learn something from Sonos (?)

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:11 am
by Ludek
Try this:
artist:"du pre"

Re: MM5 contextual search could learn something from Sonos (?)

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:22 pm
by BMF
Guys, when i type "du pre" in the search window i get 692 results, but only 172 are tracks with Jaqueline du Pré as an artist. Same with "du pré". What did i misunderstood in your discussion? :D :D

The meaningful use of Sonos (which i have spread over my appartment too) ended when my collection surpassed 60.000 tracks. And it did a bunch of years ago. And i appreciate MM, which gives me the opportunity to send my tracks to the sonos units. Be it single tracks or a playlist. Sonos even shows the cover art in its apps.

By the way and off topic. Any fan of classical music especially chamber music (which is not my favourite) should listen to music of Jaqueline du Pré. She was a hell of a cello player.

greetings from Berlin

bmf

Re: MM5 contextual search could learn something from Sonos (?)

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:41 pm
by Ludek
As I wrote above, try to type artist: "du p"

Was discussed as item 5b here: https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view ... 106#c51230
But I guess that the wording in the tooltip still doesn't reflect the ambiguity, re-opened and assigned to Rusty for wording correction.

Re: MM5 contextual search could learn something from Sonos (?)

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:11 pm
by Barry4679
Ludek wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:11 am
Try this:
artist:"du pre"
Thanks ... that is good.

Ludek wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:41 pm
But I guess that the wording in the tool-tip still doesn't reflect the ambiguity, re-opened and assigned to Rusty for wording correction.
There are few things that should be fixed with that tool tip.

Firstly legibility ... is the task to make the tool-tip more legible assigned to anyone, and|or is it being tracked? .... the quote below contains various typos ... I used a screen scrapper to copy it from your tool tip ... so it is not only vision-challenged people who can't read your tool-tip accurately ... computers can't do it either. .. try and determine the exact syntax for rating: from this screenshot


Search Tips;
Abc : finds words beginning with Abe (case-msensdivc eg accented)
+Abc : finds words beginning with Abe (case-sensitive)
"Abe": finds whole words Abe (exact match)
A B : finds files with A AND B
A ORB : finds files with either A orB
A-B : find files with A and NOT B
fieldname A : restricts search to a specific field. Fra example:
artistA : finds files with Artist = A
yearXL-Y : finds files in range X to Y
rating; X_ ; finds files with X stars or more
The mixed lower and upper case in your examples is very confusing ... it looks as if it is meaningful, but it isn't ... examples should all be lower case, except where case is significant ... the confusing use of mixed case in your example hides the fact that cap OR zap is not the same as cap or zap

The mix of significant and insignificant colons is confusing ... ie. in fieldname:A the colon is significant ... but in other examples like "Abc": the colon is just decoration

"Abc" ... needs quite a lot of explanation ... additional to your Mantis comments:
  • there needs to be something to show that this element can be used within other patterns
  • in my library no finds 5799 tracks ... "no" finds only 634 tracks ... I can understand this, ie. it doesn't match "nobody" ... but why does "no " match 3318 tracks ? ... ie. the search is more specific, and that makes it match more (?) tracks
  • exact match, in the "Abe": example, suggests that you are also implying that there need to be exactly the same capitalisation ... not true

ps: it is neat that album artist:xxxx works as well as albumartist:xxxx :D


crash EFEA7918 ... MM hung and was unable to send the dump to you
I dug the dump out of \EurekaLab s.a.s\EurekaLog, and PM'd it to Ludek
I was trying to re-rate a track when MM crashed

Re: MM5 contextual search could learn something from Sonos (?)

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:21 pm
by BMF
Oh, now i understand what you mean with contextual. I have to admit i never used that in mm 4 neither. There is a simple reason: it is too much typing and i feel like in a dos environment. I never found it comfortable or attractive. So i don't use it in mm5 either (or neither? i have to visit the grammar to see how to use either and neither :roll: )

What i used in mm4 is the search window which can be opened with Strg+ F (when i remember right for i don't use mm4 since there are stable alpha versions of mm5). Look there is a compliment for the work in progress :D . There were some tags as predefined search fields. I did not have to type them and in most cases it did fit my needs. This feature has gone and it took some time for me to live with that. But what will not happen in the future is that you guys bring me back to do a search like in good (??) old dos times typing parameters.

Now you may argue that predefined search fields gives limitation to users that need special ones. Let them decide which search fields appear. Make such a search dialogue customizable in the option panel, if the user needs other tags for his individual mm5 experience.

I know there is still the advanced search modus (like in mm4). But typing and selecting the search parameters for a single search is not comfortable for it takes too much time. It is okay to set an auto-playlist. It is unattractive (let's say too nerdy), at least for me, for a simple search.

greetings from hot Berlin (these days especially the temperatures :D )

bmf

Re: MM5 contextual search could learn something from Sonos (?)

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:31 pm
by Barry4679
BMF wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:21 pm
Oh, now i understand what you mean with contextual. ...
You probably understand ... but just in case you don't.

"contextual search" means search within your current "context" ... eg. if you are in the "Classical Music" node, the search will only search & return tracks that are in that node. ... it is triggered by having your cursor in a grid or list, in the middle panel, and you type something ... and MM opens a search control in the tool bar, for what you just typed. and searches just within the context of the node that you have open

The other thing is "global" search ... it searches your whole database, ie. not just the current context ... it is triggered by Ctrl+F or if you use the looking glass at the right of the tool bar. or if you current context is global.

BMF wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:21 pm
What i used in mm4 is the search window which can be opened with Strg+ F (when i remember right for i don't use mm4 since there are stable alpha versions of mm5). Look there is a compliment for the work in progress :D . There were some tags as predefined search fields. I did not have to type them and in most cases it did fit my needs. This feature has gone and it took some time for me to live with that. But what will not happen in the future is that you guys bring me back to do a search like in good (??) old dos times typing parameters.

Now you may argue that predefined search fields gives limitation to users that need special ones. Let them decide which search fields appear. Make such a search dialogue customizable in the option panel, if the user needs other tags for his individual mm5 experience.

I know there is still the advanced search modus (like in mm4). But typing and selecting the search parameters for a single search is not comfortable for it takes too much time. It is okay to set an auto-playlist. It is unattractive (let's say too nerdy), at least for me, for a simple search.
All searches are now like you used the "any text fields" box in MM4. ... there not really any extra typing ... you don't have to qualify what tag you are searching ... you get everything from the one search query, and then you click on the result that you were searching for

eg. here I was at the Home screen, and I had clicked it, so that was where the (invisible) cursor was positioned ... I wanted Van Morrison .... so I just typed morr ... I get this ... see I get matching artists ... and matching albums ... and matching tracks .... so nothing forces me to type artist:morri ... which would have just found matching artists

And since I was positioned at the MM5 Home screen ... the context was automatically global

If I do the same thing, when I am in the Classical Music node, I get a different result ... no Van Morrison ... just classical tracks with a tag with a word starting with "morr"

If I stay in the same place and type rach ... see that i get albums and tracks played and|or composed by Rachmaninov ... see that Caruso track in there? ... they included that to see if you are awake :) ... it has "rach" in the track's title

that "feature" does has its uses ... eg you wanted the "Waldstein" sonata by Beethoven ... you just need to type beet wald

BMF wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:21 pm
So i don't use it in mm5 either (or neither? i have to visit the grammar to see how to use either and neither :roll: )
It is a bit of a joke me giving advice here, as I am not an expert, but ..

either = one is probably true .... eg. You are either pregnant, or you are not.
neither = none will be true ... eg. you are neither a rock nor a tree.

Re: MM5 contextual search could learn something from Sonos (?)

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:49 am
by Ludek
Re crash EFEA7918 -- thx, this will be fixed in 2184, could be simulated e.g. by contextual search for '; ;' (without the apostrophes, just semicolon, space, semicolon)

Re the tooltip readability and issues, the legibility will be improved in 2184, there was an incorrect font used on MD skins, should be (Work Sans, 12 px) -- according to MD spec: https://material.io/design/components/t ... ml#theming

The wording issues noted at https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view ... 106#c53988 -- to be reviewed

Re: MM5 contextual search could learn something from Sonos (?)

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:59 am
by Barry4679
I looked further into this apparent anomaly
Barry4679 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:11 pm
  • in my library no finds 5799 tracks ... "no" finds only 634 tracks ... I can understand this, ie. it doesn't match "nobody" ... but why does "no " match 3318 tracks ? ... ie. the search is more specific, and that makes it match more (?) tracks


"no " seems to match tracks like this
but "no" doesn't

maybe you remove noise coming from punctuation before matching?

Is a bit confusing if you are going that in "exact match" queries isn't ? ... feels like a bug

btw. many many tracks in classical music have track titles containing no. 1, no. 2, etc ... that is why I have 2,684 extra tracks matched by the more explicit query (I think)