[1426] First letter Summary is confusing

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timelezz
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[1426] First letter Summary is confusing

Post by timelezz » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:08 am

Don't know if one should call this a bug, but it's bugging me ;)
In a view: Illustrations with details" when you sort on GENRE, or DATE, the column 'Summary' sorts on these well. But when I sort on the extra fields (say FIELD1), then the column 'Summary' only shows the first letter of the value.

This makes that values that are complete different, but only have a common first letter are grouped together. I suggest to group based on full value.

Lowlander
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Re: [1426] First letter Summary is confusing

Post by Lowlander » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:23 pm

In the Art with Details view the values shown in the Summary column don't change no matter what column I sort on, even Custom fields.

Are you perhaps talking about the Grouping headings? While sorting on Date is shows the full date, but sorting on fields like Title, Artist, and Customs it only shows the first letter. This is the same as in MediaMonkey 3.
Lowlander (MediaMonkey user since 2003)

timelezz
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Re: [1426] Grouping Headings are confusing

Post by timelezz » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:12 am

Yes, I mean the Grouping Headings - I understand this now. I feel I have to demonstrate what I mean. I have several issues with it. And I think it could be more useful.

#1. I did not intuitively understood that the headings relate to the column I sorted upon. I thought it was related to the first column, as this is where the group headers appear. If the developers can make it more intuitively, that would be great.

#2. Grouping on genre, it does not understand multiple genres. As you can see in the following example
Image

#3. With grouping based on Custom Fields, it would be neat if it grouped per full string, not only the first letter. I understand that some people have ID's in their Custom Fields, but they would not use grouping to sort. Groupings are inherently useful after categorizing. So MM best choice is to group based on the full string for Custom Fields.
Image

#4. It seems that one can sort on Illustration, and then it sorts on 'album title'. Perhaps better to disable sorting on this field?
Image

#5. When some groups are collapsed, and you edit one of the songs - by right click, edit properties, save - all of the groups are not collapsed anymore!

Lowlander
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Re: [1426] First letter Summary is confusing

Post by Lowlander » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:29 am

2) MediaMonkey treats multiple value fields as a single text string, which can cause some issues like this or improper sorting if some files have no space between values and some do.

3) It might be useful for you, but for those with many possible values (like Title) just grouping on first character is more useful.

4) As Art is normally based on Album it's logical that sorting on Art sorts on Album. And if you don't like that it sorts on Album there's no need to have it disabled, just sort on another column.

5) Are you having all but one collapsed and then select a single file for editing?
Lowlander (MediaMonkey user since 2003)

timelezz
Posts: 151
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Re: [1426] First letter Summary is confusing

Post by timelezz » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:39 pm

#2 So I can ask MM developers to fix this?

#3, #4, Ya, maybe I have just different preferences. But I think I had a legit point ;)

#5 It does not matter how many I have collapsed. They ALL get back un-collapsed after I change the properties of one of the files in the list. It does not happen on selecting a file, but after saving the edits (what closes the file property window).

Ps.1 I'm non-native. What is the antonym of 'collapsed'?
Ps.2 Why no comment on #1 ? I know no solution to solve this, but I'm sure a designer could come up with something.

Lowlander
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Re: [1426] First letter Summary is confusing

Post by Lowlander » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:05 pm

1) I see no problem.

5) I see the same.
Lowlander (MediaMonkey user since 2003)

rusty
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Re: [1426] First letter Summary is confusing

Post by rusty » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:58 pm

Thanks for the feedback.

1. I think it's reasonably intuitive at the moment.

2. Multiple attributes is a problem with respect to grouping since the tracklist shows only one instance of each particular track. I don't think it makes sense to show 3 instances of a track within a particular list if there's only 1 in existence. The approach taken was to sort such tracks based on the first of multiple attributes. Note that a different approach is taken in the tree (each attribute has its own node).

If you have ideas for a good solution...

3. Sounds reasonable to use the full strings when Grouping by custom fields. But it could be problematic if some users are using these fields for unique IDs. Perhaps it's worth starting a thread in the forum 'What do you use the Custom field for' before making such a change.

4. Yeah, that's already slated for a fix in #8260.

5. Thanks--tracked at: http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=8347

-Rusty

timelezz
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Re: [1426] First letter Summary is confusing

Post by timelezz » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:24 pm

Thanks guys!

#2 That is a legit point, I haven't thought about yet. But... So why not only use the first value (when there are multiple values). If multiple values would be Piano/Violin/Guitar, then this file is only showed within the group 'Piano'. It kinda forces users to put the most important value in front, but that is pretty logical as well. When skeptical you can see it as a trade-off, but it is a trade-off for the better. If we leave the status quo would show a group called 'Piano/Violin/Guitar', which is less helpful for someone who intended to sort his list.

#3 I once asked how people use Custom Fields (link). Indeed, some use PUID, or ID's from FreeDB/IMDB. Others use values to define Country, Occasion, Gender, Language, etc.

I think I have a solution to this. The people who do not use ID's, will be better of when full strings are used for Grouping. That is evident, ain't it? Currently, MM groups these values alphabetically. So every country that starts with an S is grouped in the same group - Sarajevo and Spain together. It is clear that a user would rather see them all sorted on their 'full string'. It is more useful to see that you have 4 Spanish songs, and 3 songs from Sarajevo, rather than seeing that you have 7 songs from countries that start with an S.

Now, are the people who use ID's happy with alphabetical grouping? Is it helpful to group the songs on the first character that they start with? Most ID's start with a number. So we would see a large group '0-9'. And a group of 'A', 'B' ... 'Z', is not helpful for this way of using the Custom fields. Also I think that an (unique) ID is never intended to group upon. Would someone ever group on IMDB ID's, or PUID's? These Id's are only reference to look up additional information.

I found one person who might find alphabetical grouping helpful for the Custom Fields. He uses a field as 'Additional Albums'. And I can imagine someone using it for 'Additional Artists' to tell what other artist did a cover of this song too (or something like that).

So here is my suggestion. Let the user define what the nature of the Custom field is. Is it to give the track an ID, or to Categorize. MM will handle these custom fields according to these settings.

Default -> Alphabetical order
Categorizing -> MM groups on full strings
Identification -> no grouping, (only sorting)

For all other pre-defined Field in MM, the developers can decide themselves what is most appropriated, just like they do now.

tommycrock
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Re: [1426] First letter Summary is confusing

Post by tommycrock » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:07 pm

Hi Timelezz
timelezz wrote:Ps.1 I'm non-native. What is the antonym of 'collapsed'?
expanded is a good antonym of collapsed with respect to a human computer interface; in other circumstances this wouldn't be appropriate.

timelezz
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Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:08 am

Re: [1426] First letter Summary is confusing

Post by timelezz » Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:13 pm

Thank You Tommy!

timelezz
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Re: [1426] First letter Summary is confusing

Post by timelezz » Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:14 pm

<Bump> Rusty, what do you think of my idea?

Pandora
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Re: [1426] First letter Summary is confusing

Post by Pandora » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:29 am

I think your idea is good. This has been bugging me for a while too. I use the 'Grouping' field to specify if it is a studio album live album, EP, single etc. and wanna sort on that, but it only shows the first letter. I think the best option would be if you could choose how the grouping works for each field in the collection.

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