Media Tree search issue

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Expand view Topic review: Media Tree search issue

Re: Media Tree search issue

by dmcritchie » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:07 pm

I think that the situation is that the new design is more flexible ... but not much of it is intuitive, nor based upon common practice ..,. it is hard to get to grips with unless you happen to be the designer, or have enough time and patience to experiment .... although we have not yet seen the tuts and online help material that is coming ... hopefully.

This becomes a a "problem" when the old way of doing things is removed ... it is great that we now have better (depending on your POV) ways of doing things, but this is no good, where the old ways are removed, unless the new ways are obvious and simple ... and they are neither of those things initially.
I strongly agree with Barry here.

Dennis

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Peke » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:10 pm

Barry4679 wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:01 pm Same thing with anything that materially changes the UI or the MM flow or mechanics. At the moment, changes like this just affect a handful of testers, and it only impacts testing, not our production use of MM.
MM5 as you said ATM "affect a handful of testers" and it needs to grow and expand. MM5.0 is builders block like LEGO and I've seen MM grow from 1.x to 5.0 and what can be made with single brick wall.

To bring order there must be a chaos to put in order.
Barry4679 wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:01 pm All this will slow down progress ... ie much slower, not much faster.
It is not unknown to MM that progress is seen from build to build.
Barry4679 wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:01 pmNow is the time to address any apparent areas of confusion, like filter|search or increased consistency between the modes ... IMO
Addressing "any apparent areas of confusion, like filter|search or increased consistency between the modes ... IMO" is priority and must be addressed ASAP along with greater stability.

Adding new features in MM5 is much easier and open than any earlier MM, take for example All Nodes where in MM4.x it is core feature and MM5 allows it to be separate script that can be easily changed/fixed where instead in MM4 CORE app needs to be recompiled. But if MM4 was perfect there wouldn't be MM5 right?

And for your worries just look at past and differences from MM2.x -> MM3.0 then MM3.0 -> 3.2 and 4.0 -> 4.1 https://www.mediamonkey.com/news/2011/ and you will see that Version number doesn't mean we are done, but barely that we are just starting new chapter.

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Barry4679 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:01 pm

Peke wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:58 am Releasing MM5 is just the beginning and after it gets released things will be developed much faster.
Much faster? Why would you think that? ... I don't think so. Once MM5 is released, and people migrate to it, the large reputation cost of regression bugs will require a lot more testing and caution before release. MM will go from hero to zero if post-release upgrades to MM5 have the amount and type of bugs that we as seeing at the moment.

Same thing with anything that materially changes the UI or the MM flow or mechanics. At the moment, changes like this just affect a handful of testers, and it only impacts testing, not our production use of MM.

All this will slow down progress ... ie much slower, not much faster.

Now is the time to address any apparent areas of confusion, like filter|search or increased consistency between the modes ... IMO

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Peke » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:58 am

Hi,
While reviewing this Topic I have came to one simple conclusion and that main confusion here is that like Barry said MM5 is far more flexible than MM4 and main issue there is that MMW UI and features/functions were expanded over 15 years of developing and due the the reason MM5 is only in Beta makes it harder to coup with 15 years of developing hopes and ui we got used to. So I personally welcome Barry intentional finger pointing ( https://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewt ... 30&t=93945 ) at that is the way MMW was developed and looks like it is now and the goal for MM5 is overcome that and evolve beyond that.

Releasing MM5 is just the beginning and after it gets released things will be developed much faster.

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Ludek » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:28 am

Barry4679 wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:18 am [UPDATE] ... I see that the rhs search control is not necessarily a library-wide search.

...

If I then navigate to Home on the Media tree, and redo the search using the lhs
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wndk40zny6x29 ... 3.png?dl=0
#1 the bread crumbs indicate that it is a library wide search
#2 It says that it is unfiltered ... good
#3 ... but I still get only 3 hits .... ??
Thanks, ut is a recent regression introduced in 2161, will be fixed in 2163 as
https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=15513

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Ludek » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:38 am

Davo wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:29 pm Hi Ludek
Re collections search: To search a collection just focus the media tree node collection (e.g. Audiobooks) and type a search
When i do as you suggest for my 'Classical Library' and i enter 'beeth' into search it brings up 'Roll Over Beethoven' by Chuck Berry which is certainly not in my 'Classical Library'
How did you enter 'beeth' ? I think that main confusion here is that just typing in a view (without pressing Ctrl+F or clicking search bar) does contextual search limited to the selected content/collection.
While pressing Ctrl+F or clicking the search button to bring the search bar at first does global search within entire library.

So the steps to search only the Classical collection are:
1) Select 'Classical' in the media tree, but ensure that search bar isn't visible
2) Just type 'beet' (without entering search bar)

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Barry4679 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:42 am

Davo wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:28 am BTW do you know how to search within a Collection. I select my Classical music Collection then search for Beethoven. It brings up Chuck Berry's - Roll over Beethoven ??
There are multiple ways to do this in MM5. ... IMO, some of the ways are better than the old MM4 faculties.

I think that the situation is that the new design is more flexible ... but not much of it is intuitive, nor based upon common practice ..,. it is hard to get to grips with unless you happen to be the designer, or have enough time and patience to experiment .... although we have not yet seen the tuts and online help material that is coming ... hopefully.

This becomes a a "problem" when the old way of doing things is removed ... it is great that we now have better (depending on your POV) ways of doing things, but this is no good, where the old ways are removed, unless the new ways are obvious and simple ... and they are neither of those things initially.


Ludek wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:51 am On the other hand I agree that we should evaluate whether not to include 'Show all Nodes" extension to be pre-installed.
As it probably has no downside.
Sounds a great idea to me.

------

David, try these methods to search for Beethoven in MM5.


A: The cleanest way is to use the search control on the right, and type composer:bee .... this will filter to just tracks composed by Beethoven ... you can toggle the display from Track display or to Albums&Tracks, depending whether albums mean anything to you.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wi3mfad3tpbuo ... A.png?dl=0

B: Or in Grid mode: 1. Open the Classical Music Node ... #2. click on the Composers subnode, then #3 click on sone free space within the matrix, ie. not on any specific composer, and type the letters bee ... nb. since you are in the Classical node, only classical tracks will be displayed (nb. SHOULD be displayed; there is a bug here ATM, as I reported earlier)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/248xqlf82n6k6 ... 1.png?dl=0

Then click on Beethoven icon
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sqzw2vkksdmu9 ... 2.png?dl=0
nb. the 1st step obviously not too useful in this case because Beethoven is at the start of the alphabet, and was already displayed

This displays all albums which contain any tracks by Beethoven ... click on any album to see the tracks ... note how the displayed track list only includes album tracks that were by Beethoven.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cybvkw26nx62o ... 3.png?dl=0


C: Or in List View mode: if you don't want to see grouped by album, use List mode ... same thing: #1 Classical node ... #2 AllTracks ... #3 click on free space somewhere in the list, and type bee
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ller9dlwin5vo ... C.png?dl=0

nb. ... by being in the Classical node you have got rid of your Chuck Berry problem, as you will see only classical albums, but you can see that it has included a Gershwin track which includes the word "BEEn" ... this would have been avoided if I typed Beethoven rather than bee ... but it still would have included every track from an album whose album name contains the word Beethoven, regardless of who composed the track .... this could be fixed by excluding the album tag from from the search list by the Tools|Options|Library|Search menu option

-----

nb. you may well be wondering why I think that the MM5 facilities are an improvement over MM4 ... it may be a close run thing, but I think that they are a quicker, albeit slightly dirty, search and filter facility, than offered by MM4 ... they are available in-place, where ever I am, without having to muck about with the Media Tree, and the Media Tree involved dealing with great long vertical lists that were made more difficult because I allocate very little width to that column.

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Davo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:29 pm

Hi Ludek
Re collections search: To search a collection just focus the media tree node collection (e.g. Audiobooks) and type a search
When i do as you suggest for my 'Classical Library' and i enter 'beeth' into search it brings up 'Roll Over Beethoven' by Chuck Berry which is certainly not in my 'Classical Library'

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Ludek » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:51 am

Hi, ok, I see much of confusion here with regard to number of search capabilities in MM5

Barry was refrerring the default "filter matches" MM5 behaviour (configured in Options > Search).
I agree that the "Filter: off/on" is totally confusing as it should be rather "Advanced Search Filter: Off/On" as it in fact toggles between MM4 like advanced search (with criteria rows) and standard search bar searching
this was already suggested to change the wording in https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view ... 371#c52559

Davo was referrering "scroll to matches" behaviour within media tree with the 'Show all Nodes" extension installed.
It is based on personal preference which tool is more useful, and also on personal preference whether only just "whole phrase prefixes" or "word prefixes" should be matched. i.e. whether typing "king" should scroll to "B.B. King" or just to "King Crimson"

I think that having this all to be configurable would just complicate things further.

On the other hand I agree that we should evaluate whether not to include 'Show all Nodes" extension to be pre-installed.
As it probably has no downside. Tracked as https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=13962

Re collections search: To search a collection just focus the media tree node collection (e.g. Audiobooks) and type a search, e.g. "rob"
and it brings just "Robinson Crusoe" of my audiobooks collection and not the content of the others collections:
=> https://www.dropbox.com/s/svxp3237589kf ... 8.png?dl=0

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Davo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:28 am

@Barry
I was using the 'Show all Nodes" extension. Personally i get the impression that the MM team would prefer to not have a Media Tree, so i don't expect to see any improvement in it. Pity because it is a very useful tool.

BTW do you know how to search within a Collection. I select my Classical music Collection then search for Beethoven. It brings up Chuck Berry's - Roll over Beethoven ??

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Barry4679 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:28 pm

Davo wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:54 pm What i want at the Tree nodes is a simple alphabetical search on the first name.
Not tried it myself, but try the "showAllNodes" add-on which is shipped with MM5.

It is discussed here: https://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewt ... 30&t=87018
And fixed here: http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=13962

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Davo » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:54 pm

Thanks Barry for that detailed analysis.
What i want at the Tree nodes is a simple alphabetical search on the first name. This allows me to quickly navigate in the media tree. At the moment if i type 'bob' because i'm looking for Bob Dylan, I get the result "Big Bob" Dougherty & His Band. If i Ctrl down it finds the next occurrence of "bob" in a string.

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Barry4679 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:18 am

[UPDATE] ... I see that the rhs search control is not necessarily a library-wide search.

But there seems to be a bug, which may be what you are seeing:

If I start MM5, and use the rhs search to search for the string "don", I get 826 hits.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kscodotjh90dr ... 1.png?dl=0
I can see the search scope in the bread crumbs at #1
I can see that the search was unfiltered at #2
I get 825 hits at #3
All good

I then go into a Media Node, which will restrict the number of hits
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eekntj1a11ido ... 2.png?dl=0
#1 the breadcrumbs show that it has searched just within the selected node
#2 it says that it is unfiltered view ... which is wrong and confusing IMO ... it is clearly filtered ... if I toggle the filter on I can see that it has the index name entered into the filter ... but the UI claims that it is not using this filter ... ??
#3 it now gets 3 hits ... as expected

If I then navigate to Home on the Media tree, and redo the search using the lhs
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wndk40zny6x29 ... 3.png?dl=0
#1 the bread crumbs indicate that it is a library wide search
#2 It says that it is unfiltered ... good
#3 ... but I still get only 3 hits .... ??

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Barry4679 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:24 am

Hi David,

I am hoping that MM are monitoring the level of confusion about MM5 sort facilities, because it is fairly complex, and will need a seriously good tut or online help facility.

It was all explained to me once ... but today I am struggling again ... this is as I understand it (today)
  • the search, at the left and right hand side, looks at the beginning of every word ... so "don" finds Donovan ... and also finds Lou Donaldson
  • it also finds the the album "Don't Shoot Me I'm the Piano Player" and the album "I Don't Worry About A Thing" ... and the composer Donizetti, and the track "Wrong Key Donkey" .... and lots of other things ... this behaviour can be changed by turning off the columns, that you don't want searched, at Tools|Options|Library|Search
  • or you can specify which column is sorted by a search string like "album:don" ... hover over the right hand search control to see a tool tip explaining the syntax
  • the right hand search control is a filter ... ie. lists all hits, as you described with your "queen" example
  • the left hand search control can exhibit either a filter, or a scroll-to", behaviour ... it is controlled by the "contextual search" setting at Tools|Options|Library|Search ... you probably have this set to "scroll to matches"
  • the right hand search is a whole-library search ... the left hand search is constrained to just the tracks that meet the inclusion criteria for whatever Media Tree node that you are in

    Or you can use some add-on script, which is distributed with MM5, that will turn the detail rows back on, in the Media Tree ... ie. MM4 style https://www.dropbox.com/s/m22mc5opyy4cc ... s.png?dl=0

    I haven't tried it ... I think that the new facility is better ... or it will be after we can switch across to MM5, and use it on a regular basis.

Re: Media Tree search issue

by Davo » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:26 am

Thanks Peke but that is not the behaviour i am getting.
I tried "queen" as you suggest but i got a random response which didn't even have 'queen" in the text. & after that the system froze,

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