Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

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Expand view Topic review: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by MrSinatra » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:11 pm

see here:

http://origin.mediamonkey.com/forum/vie ... 89#p358489

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ID3#ID3v2_Rating_tag_issue

what i am trying to figure out is to what degree WMP supports granularity and a similar chart as to how it reads and writes POPM values.

does anyone know? also, did wmp change how it does this between versions at any point?

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by gk » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:57 pm

Seeing that there has been non progress on improving MM POPM support, I just did a search to see if any other players are doing it and found the following on the Banshee Media Player list:

ID3v2 Popularimeter (Ratings+Playcount) import/export
http://banshee-media-player.2283330.n4. ... 83967.html

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by gk » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:37 pm

nohitter151 wrote:I have Windows 7 and WMP 12. In win 7 (probably XP as well) you can right click an mp3 file > Properties > Details tab. You can change mp3 tags there.

Re: viewing tracks in WMP... what exactly do you mean 'worst'? Bomb rating? of course that shows as unrated in WMP, it doesn't have any equivalent for 'Bomb' to display.

PS: You're right that WMP doesn't save ID tags for ratings by default. But that's because you have to enable it in the options. Tools > Options > Library tab, 'Maintain my star ratings as global ratings in files'

Even more: see the mp3tag website which clearly states WMP uses POPM tag:
http://help.mp3tag.de/main_tags.html
I am following up now since I have just switched from Windows XP to Windows 7 and could not verify the claims of nohitter151 previously.

This is my experience.

System:
Windows 7 Home Premium, SP1 6/25/2011
Windows Media Player (WMP) (wmplayer.exe) version 12.0.7601.17514

EXPERIMENT
I have the latest Windows Media Player (WMP), with option enabled:
Tools > Options > Library tab, 'Maintain my star ratings as global ratings in files'

In Windows File Explorer, I right-click on an unrated mp3 file, choosing to view Properties.
I assigned it a 5 star rating, in the properties dialog, click Apply, then OK to exit the dialog.

I open the mp3 file in UltraEdit-32 text editor and these are the bytes that are found.

-- Frame Header (10 bytes)

50 4F 50 4D 00 00 00 1F 00 00

Frame ID (4 bytes)
50 4F 50 4D
P O P M
Size (4 bytes)
00 00 00 1F
'1F' hexadecimal to decimal: 16+15 = 31 bytes POPM frame payload after this 10 byte header
Flags (2 bytes)
= 00 00
(no flags set)

-- Frame Content (31 bytes) (i.e., payload)

Email + ONE termination byte (31 bytes)

W i n d o w s M e d i a P l a y e r 9 S e r i e s . (termination byte)
57 69 6e 64 6f 77 73 20 4d 65 64 69 61 20 50 6c 61 79 65 72 20 39 20 53 65 72 69 65 73 2e 00

NOTE: no further POPM data is found, no rating has been written to the mp3 file.

-- EXPERIMENT
I have the latest Windows Media Player (WMP), with option enabled:
Tools > Options > Library tab, 'Maintain my star ratings as global ratings in files'

In Windows Media Player, I open the same mp3 file, which I previously rated in Explorer.
This file is in the library and displays as 'unrated' (no stars).
I assigned it a 5 star rating, in the properties dialog and quit WMP.

I again re-open the mp3 file in UltraEdit-32 text editor and there has been NO change to the bytes and, in particular, no POPM rating has been written to the mp3 file.

-- CONCLUSION

Despite claims to the contrary, I cannot find any evidence that WMP or Windows 7 Explorer write any rating data to the mp3 files, not in the POPM or any other id3v2 fields.
Therefore, the claim that the non-standard behavior of MM is related to non-standard Windows 7 behavior is questionable.

I would also suspect that the WMP option 'Maintain my star ratings as global ratings in files' does not refer to mp3 files - it probably refers to internal settings files used by WMP.

I should also mention that this is not a problem with write permission to the mp3 file in my test since I am running as Administrator and have verified that the file is not set to read only.

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by Jadjam » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:59 am

Wow, heated discussion in here! Though I can understand, this whole standards thing is frustrating. On my android phone, I've started using the one decent music player that handles ratings, PlayerPro. It adheres to the standards of POPM but MediaMonkey uses a Rating MM interpretation of the tag so they are incompitable, I for one would love to see the option of switching compatibility.

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by Simolio » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:14 pm

I thought I might add that it doesn't default just newly imported tracks to bombs but tracks that have been in the library for a while.

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by Simolio » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:24 pm

That requires way too much hassle, I would have to keep updating it when I add new tracks.

I think I've had it with MediaMonkey now, I'm switching to another program.

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by Lowlander » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:03 pm

The easiest way around it is to create a Playlist per Rating in the old program. Import the Playlists and select all files on it and rate them with that rating. So you create a Playlist with all your 4 star tracks and import it and rate them 4 stars in MediaMonkey.

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by Simolio » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:01 pm

I'm having exactly the same problem, has anybody got a solution rather than just criticising MM?

I'm not a tech-wizz but I'm a DJ, and it's destroying my rating systems. I have over 20,000 songs so it's destroying my selection process.
I might have to switch to another media player if there is no solution..

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by gk » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:46 am

nohitter151 wrote:I don't see why you're so obsessed with what/whether WMP writes to tag. The point is what it READS from the tag, not what it writes.

PS here is the data you wanted:
Image
After looking at the data you posted in more detail, it is not possible to interpret the data you posted since it doesn't include any frame header.

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by gk » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:03 am

nohitter151 wrote:I don't see why you're so obsessed with what/whether WMP writes to tag. The point is what it READS from the tag, not what it writes.
Just by chance, I happened to notice that you edited this posting AFTER you said you had quit the thread ...

Whatever.

I am not 'obsessed' - it was you who assert that MM is 'compatible' with some 'standard'.
I asked to see the 'standard'.

Well, 'compatible' should mean read and write n'est-ce pas?

What is your point exactly?

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by gk » Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:35 am

I tried to delete this posting but could not - so I leave this comment - There was a lot of technical discussion about this issue - went offline during period of poll creation

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by gk » Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:55 pm

Since it has been argued, in this thread, that MM's desire for 'compatibility' with WMP v12 (Windows 7 only) justifies incompatibility with id3v2.3 POPM standard, here are the latest statistics on Windows 7 usage:
http://www.crn.com/news/applications-os ... -vista.htm
....Windows 7 has a long way to go to overtake the aging Windows XP, which still has more than double the market share of Windows 7 and Vista combined despite being almost nine years old.....Windows XP still held a 61.9 percent market share in July. While the number of users of that desktop operating system have been on a long, slow decline – it had more than 70 percent of the market one year ago and has lost 5.9 points of share since the first of the year – it will be some time before the Windows XP and Windows 7 market share lines cross.

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by gk » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:49 pm

To sum up the discussion so far -

The original question has been answered by me and nobody has expressed a difference of opinion so far: the "bomb" on import is being caused by MM wrongly interpreting "unrated" values in the POPM frame (0x00) as indicating a rating of "worst" (bomb).

These are the issues, as I see it:

1. MM should not violate the id3v2.3 spec by hijacking the POPM frame with its own semantics for 'worst', 'best' - just use another frame
2. MM should not be claiming to follow an alleged WMP 'POPM standard' that is not published anywhere
3. MM should certainly not be writing invalid POPM data ('worst'=0x00; 'best'=0xFC) by default, even if this can be disabled by editing the .ini file

I really don't have any problem with how MM maps star ratings, or how these correspond to WMP, since I don't use it and there don't appear to be problems in Windows XP (WMP v11) that I have found anyway.

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by rovingcowboy » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:35 am

it seems that ms has possible changed the mediacenter players way of rating and did not tell anyone.

this could be the cause of the trouble with ratings between the mediamonkey player and the mediamonkey theme.

as the theme shows 4 stars but the player shows 3.5 stars. so there is something in the code messed up big berny has noted this last spring some time and even rusty or jiri or one of the other developers of monkey have noted this rating issue.

but as to when they can get it fixed is only to when they can find the cause of it. maybe this is the cause of it.

i say that because we all know ms changed their player from each version so that the previous versions power toys did not work with the new wmp. so this media center player might have given us the same treatment.

8)

Re: Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

by gk » Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:24 am

nohitter151 wrote:
gk wrote: Why don't you just tell us exactly what is this "De-facto POPM implementation" that you claim to be compatible with - be specific in terms of star ratings and POPM data.
I have already posted that:
http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... ng#p226576
I'm done with this thread.
That link only discusses how MM maps its own POPM values to star ratings.
It says nothing about your claim of any sort of "POPM standard" compliance.

You have claimed that there exists a "De-facto" (Microsoft/WMP) "POPM implementation" which MM is compatible with.
Where is it?
Microsoft doesn't claim any such thing.
I see no evidence of it in WMP v11?

Where is the 'hard evidence' you claim for this?

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