Navigation [#15074]

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Ludek
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Re: Navigation

Post by Ludek »

Barry4679 wrote: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:17 am So my problem is that I get no way to navigate down if subfolders is disabled. ... ie. in a Nework>NAS>Share situation where my folders are below that

You can replicate that?
I can still navigate down using either the media tree or the navigation bar by clicking the [>] separator button like this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ol7vb8mz9m8a8 ... 9.png?dl=0

Isn't this your case too?


Re the 'Exclude subfolders' button position, it is somehow random, I am seeing it on the right now too, entered as https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=15074
Barry4679
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Location: Australia
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Re: Navigation [#15074]

Post by Barry4679 »

I had not tried the bread crumb "navigation bar"

I clicked it it. At first it did not seem to work because the track list remains empty. But if I look carefully I see that it opens a micro-window, and if I click in that window it steps the navigation one step forward. ... I do that careful mouse operation two more times (ie. position and click on tiny targets), I get past NAS and Share ... then I finally get to my Artist folders, is a great long list ... no keyboard power-scroll, which is really disappointing (more below).

Worse still the list is size limited, ie. if I scroll down and down and down it stops at "Hilltop Hoods" ... it misses half of my collection ... there is a little '...' at the end, which does nothing if I click on it?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/arxuujywogt1b ... t.png?dl=0

You also suggested I try the Media Tree route ... That works OK, but maybe I have the Media Tree panel hidden ... Also if a Location node is closed, it isn't auto opened to track navigation progress.

If I start navigation using your big mid-screen icons (see image), it is like we have a contract that I am going to get somewhere .. the present implementation starts me down a path, and then abandons me, and I am expected to look for fly-spec ">" characters to click on, or open the Media Tree, and redo all that I have already done.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ats1g49vjv9t8 ... s.png?dl=0

Include sub-folders

Why does the menu option not work the same as the toolbar button with the same name? For more info see my last post. If the menu option worked properly I would have found the list based Location facility a long time ago.

If I toggle the menu option, when I am at Network, it does nothing useful for the current display ... but click the toolbar button is helpful
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hp4xhc0cfglpn ... n.png?dl=0

Power-Scroll

Now that I have found the list based location displays, I am really missing power-scroll.

I agree with kbeck, the OP. It is no fun managing a large library without power scroll.

ie. sort the file list by AlbumArtist tag, and type 'J', and you should scroll instantly to somewhere close to "Jack White", I follow with a 'o', and I am skipped forward, close to "Joan Baez", I type a "n", and I have found "Joni Mitchell ... in MM4 this took me less than a second

MM5 forces an all text field search. Powerful, but frankly it is a PIA most of the time if you know what you are looking for. It should be an option, not the default IMO ... ie. below I typed "jon", but I am still many scrolls away from Joni Mitchell
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x0go431wh446l ... i.png?dl=0
Ludek
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:00 am

Re: Navigation [#15074]

Post by Ludek »

Re: Include sub-folders:

By the menu option you probably mean 'Subfolders' sub-view under the sub-view header? This is something different, it is for showing/hiding of subfolders in the view, but 'Exclude subfolders' toolbar button is a toggle to include/exclude files from the subfolders in the List-View, I agree that the wording isn't clear enough probably, to be revised and improved (or added explanation into tooltip -- you can suggest a better wording), on the other hand I believe that the functionality is clear for one who tried the options.

Re: Power Scroll:
There are addons like showAllNodes.mmip and incrementalSearch.mmip (see sampleScripts folder) that allows showing all nodes like in MM4 and use incremental search on them (you can use the incremental search in the artist grid too -- with the incrementalSearch.mmip installed). We just didn't want them as default as we see the current local search (filtering) as more quicker way to find something in the long lists, on the other hand you are true that you must know what you are looking for, i.e. you are probably referring the use-cases when you don't know exact spelling of the particular artist, right?

Otherwise I see that users mostly don't realize or search for an addon that can do this. We could make it as option (with the scripts pre-installed), but this adds further option items into Options dialog and/or more toolbar items etc. -- which makes the UI even more complicated.
Davo
Posts: 374
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Location: Australia

Re: Navigation [#15074]

Post by Davo »

"...........incrementalSearch.mmip installed"

Ludek, I have'nt installed the mmip you mention, could you briefly explain the difference between Incremental Search & Filtering as I see that it is an either/or situation.

Also MM is freezing almost everytime i search on Entire Library -> Artist
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6l1rialsxbh56 ... h.JPG?dl=0
David
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Barry4679
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Re: Navigation [#15074]

Post by Barry4679 »

Ludek wrote: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:10 am Re: Power Scroll:
we see the current local search (filtering) as more quicker way to find something in the long lists, on the other hand you are true that you must know what you are looking for, i.e. you are probably referring the use-cases when you don't know exact spelling of the particular artist, right?
No, that's not what i meant.

Full text search is good when you DON'T know exactly what you are looking for ... eg. the band "New Riders of the Purple sage" ... I am having a brain fade, and I know that it is Purple something ... or I want a track by Charles Mingus, but I am not sure whether he was the band leader, ie. maybe the artist tag is "Duke Ellington; Charles Mingus", or maybe the artist tag is just "Duke Ellington", but the AlbumArtist tag contains both names

But PowerScroll is much better when you know what you want, and you have a large database. ... ie. the Joni Mitchell example in my last post, where MM4 allows me to get to want I want in under a second.

The current MM5 search implementation has flaws. ... eg. if I am in EntireLibrary>Albums and I want to find the album called "The Complete Jazz Guitar", and I type "Jazz" it finds all my Jazz albums due to the genre tag. ... or I trying find the track "900 miles", I can remember it is something with miles in the track name, but it is hard to find because I also have 700+ tracks by Miles Davis ... or I want to find "Nashville Skyline, but is slow to find because all of my files are on my NAS, which is named "NAS-xxxxx" ... so the search returns everything because of my track paths.

I need to narrow it down for it to be useful.

As an example, say I am looking for tracks or album by Sonny Rollins. I type 'son', and MM5 currently gives me a list of 5492 tracks .... many just because I have a bunch of tracks tagged with genre of "Singer-Songwriter" ... plus lots of others just because "son" is in the track name or something .... this is very sub optimal

If compare this to the Sonos controller, which also indexes my music library. If I type "son", they return all tracks containing "son" anywhere, just as you do, but they only show you matches for the column that I currently have selected. I can switch from column to column (eg album to albumartist, etc), and the result is instantaneous, because they have all the matches cached, just not displayed... which is good IMO

Also Sonos are smart about the sequence in which they return the results. They start with the most likely artists:
* Son House ... ie. the tag starts with "son", in alpha sequence
* Sondre Lerche
* Sonny Rollins
* Sonny Stitt
* Mumford & Sons ... now 2nd level matches ie. a word starts with "son"
* Alan Parsons ... now 3rd level matches ie. "son" is part of a word, now in alpha seq
* Alan Wilson, etc

Maybe you could not do this smart sequencing (because maybe the grid is currently sorted in album|track# sequence, but I am filtering by AlbumArtist) ... but surely you could do better than giving me 5492 tracks to scroll through ... it is worse when the genre column is not currently selected for display, because I would be wondering why on earth so many unrelated tracks were there ... because I could not see the "singer-Songwriter" genre tag. which explains many of the results that you have returned to me.


In MM5, I know that I am searching for an artist, but you don't allow me to tell you that ... unless I setup the column browser.
You could offer something like ctrl-click a column heading, say albumartist, and type "son"

And then either you resort the grid to AlbumArtist sequence, and filter the display just based upon tag matches in that column, and maybe smart sort like Sonos does.

Or maybe leave the grid sorted as-is, but filter just using albumartist tags.

Or better still, offer both using Ctrl click and shift control click to differentiate
Or use a tool bar button (like Location's "Include Subfolders" button) to trigger the powerscroll

What I am saying is that I think that you have broken search & filtering.

I understand your aim to give the equivalent of MM4 "any text fields" search more prominance in MM5.
I understand your aim to make the Media Tree a less bloated control.

These are good developments IMO
But I don't understand why you had to abandon powerscroll. Especially since it was such a prominent feature in MM4.
MM5 is bringing so many great features, that I don't won't to get too hung up on it, but IMO it is one of the most indispensable DBMS features.

I am not interested in complicating things with add-ons at the moment. ... it is hard enough trying debug vanilla MM5

Ludek wrote: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:10 am Re: Include sub-folders:

By the menu option you probably mean 'Subfolders' sub-view under the sub-view header? This is something different, it is for showing/hiding of subfolders in the view, but 'Exclude subfolders' toolbar button is a toggle to include/exclude files from the subfolders in the List-View, I agree that the wording isn't clear enough probably, to be revised and improved (or added explanation into tooltip -- you can suggest a better wording), on the other hand I believe that the functionality is clear for one who tried the options.
Yes, that was the menu option I was referring to.

I am struggling to understand your distinction between these two options.

These two things seem equivalent to me.
ie. "showing/hiding of subfolders in the view" == "include/exclude files from the subfolders in the List-View" ... ??

This what I see, and it is confusing
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xb94cwm3y4lcp ... 2.png?dl=0


And I am reasonably confident, that whatever it does, is not as important (to me) as powerscroll :wink:
Ludek
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:00 am

Re: Navigation [#15074]

Post by Ludek »

Re: PowerScroll:

ok, thanks for clarification.

These two things seem equivalent to me.
ie. "showing/hiding of subfolders in the view" == "include/exclude files from the subfolders in the List-View" ... ??
These are not equivalent, I would say that they are rather ambivalent. With combination of these two options you can either see:
a) subfolders items + files just from this parent folder
b) just files (including files from the subfolders)
c) just files (just from this parent folder)

I guess that in MM5 the cases a&b would be most used, but the c) is needed when you want MM5 to behave like MM4, i.e. to have subfolder items in the media tree, but having folder files in the view (on the right).

But I agree that the wording isn't clear enough, the toolbar button tooltip should be rather changed to something like "Include files from the subfolders" , I'll enter an issue to review the wording (#15076)
Last edited by Ludek on Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ludek
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:00 am

Re: Navigation [#15074]

Post by Ludek »

Davo wrote: Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:38 pm "...........incrementalSearch.mmip installed"

Ludek, I have'nt installed the mmip you mention, could you briefly explain the difference between Incremental Search & Filtering as I see that it is an either/or situation.
The difference is that when you are in [Entire Library > Artists] and you type 'bo' then
- with filtering it filters the artist grid and shows just artists starting with 'bo' (ike "Bob Dylan", "Bonobo")
- with incremental search it does not filter anything but scroll the view down to the first artist starting with "bo" , in my case "Boards of Canada":
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z1f7xvzy9v2s7 ... 9.png?dl=0

Also MM is freezing almost everytime i search on Entire Library -> Artist
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6l1rialsxbh56 ... h.JPG?dl=0
Thanks, this will be fixed in the next build (2121)
Ludek
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:00 am

Re: Navigation [#15074]

Post by Ludek »

FYI: I've sumarized the incremental searching issues (including the "Power Scroll") as https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=15077
Ludek
Posts: 3774
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:00 am

Re: Navigation [#15074]

Post by Ludek »

As for the original post of ability to rename albums, entered as https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=15079
Barry4679
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Location: Australia
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Re: Navigation [#15074]

Post by Barry4679 »

Ludek wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:47 am I guess that in MM5 the cases a&b would be most used, but the c) is needed when you want MM5 to behave like MM4, i.e. to have subfolder items in the media tree, but having folder files in the view (on the right).

But I agree that the wording isn't clear enough, the toolbar button tooltip should be rather changed to something like "Include files from the subfolders" , I'll enter an issue to review the wording (#15076)
I think that the fact that you are struggling to come up with a simple explanation, and I am struggling to understand what you are saying, is because this has not worked out to be a good UI design.

Current configuration is via two controls.
  • The two controls are in two different locations; one in the tool bar dropdown menu's View section (name Subfolders) ... the other is a button on the tool bar (name Exclude subfolders)
  • Neither of them are familar ... ie. they are modal, ie. only exist in the Location tab ... Neither exist when you first enter the Location tab, ie. You need navigate beyond EntireLibrary>Location before they are displayed.
  • They are both toggles, and they interact ... so there are 4 setting options (ON|ON, ON|OFF, OFF|ON & OFF|OFF) ... Just 4 setting options ... so hard can that be? ... well it does my head in. I have tried all settings, and I can't get what I would prefer. ... and then there is some unofficial downloadable mod ... so that's now 8 distinct permutations
Some of the setting combinations can lead to undesirable results. ie. in the image below I have navigated into my network via icons, and then you give me no icon to navigate any further (?) ... or in the lower part of the image I have navigated to the band A Tribe Called Quest. I have only one of their albums. I can see the album, but it looks as if all the tracks are missing (?) (yes I know that I will see the tracks if I go one level lower, but it could be confusing)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2cgvlr9kphqxu ... s.png?dl=0



I think that the problem is that the current controls are micro program behaviour based controls, rather than outcome based controls.

I don't know what use cases that your design allows for.

My use cases requirements are probably more simple; ie. I either want a graphical interface, or I want a text based interface.

Graphical: ie. like you have with button toggled off and menu toggled on ==> navigation via icons, eye candy in the icons ... is nice

I make a lot of use of this... eg. I rip to a local disk location ... then use the local tab to filter to my new rips, so I can tidy up the tags, and then use MM to drag each album to my NAS node in the Media tree, where I have created folders for each album

Text based: I can't get find what I would like within any of the 4 existing setting options ... ie. would like to see the hierarchy of my collection
The Location node is useless for this, as it is just a track list that collapses everything.

Something even better than the missing simple hierarchy display would be even better. See link below for an idea:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2fvnxj3tr9a6u ... b.png?dl=0

Something where I could open close level nodes (ie. like in the Windows Explorer) ... ie. if I opened one more level the above display would also show my tracks, and if I closed it down one level it would just display all my level 1 folders (ie. the Artist folders in my case).

I think that a Location tab like like this would add a lot of value.
In the example above I can quickly see that I have a folder under A.A.Bondy which has no tracks. ... And it gives useful location focused info that is not available in any other one place. ... The Location tab would have a meaningful purpose. It hasn't really got one now IMO.

And the UI (toggle between Graphical|Text based) would be user friendly, rather than it's current techy developer focus, which is hard to explain, and hard to understand also.
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