Artist vs Album Artist

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dsavereide
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:47 pm

Artist vs Album Artist

Post by dsavereide » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:58 pm

I have quite a few multi-artist albums that I want to keep together as entire albums. MM makes this harder then it should be with what I think is too tight a connection between Artist and Album Artist.

To start, it would be nice if during the initial import, there were an option that defaulted tracks in the same directory to the same album. Even it that meant making the album artist various or something. What happens now is all these tracks come in as different albums and I have to manually mark them with the same album artist. This is also an issue ripping CDs if I entered in the correct artists beforehand. Now it thinks they are on different albums.

While trying to fix the inconsistances caused by the above, if I modify the album artist directly in a track (not the properties dialog), it usually decides to change the artist as well. The same thing can happen if I just drag drop some tracks into the "correct" album. Or if I right click on the album and enter the album artist in that small dialog. This forces me to get out the CD and re-enter the correct artist info, so I consider it to be a destructive action.

I know that I can select tracks, edit album artist and unclick artist, but this more effort and not as natural as just editing what I want to edit or dragging things where they belong. Using the properties dialog is very tedidus since I have so many multi-artist albums which were broken into several pseudo-albums each.

Lowlander
Posts: 47519
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:53 pm
Location: MediaMonkey 5

Post by Lowlander » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:01 pm

Have you seen the multi-artist functions in MediaMonkey?

You can also edit multiple tracks together and use the location node to make navigation easier.
Lowlander (MediaMonkey user since 2003)

dsavereide
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:47 pm

Post by dsavereide » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:45 pm

The files to edit / multi-artist tag didn't pick up even half my multi-artist albums and quite a few that it did it put into seperate albums or didn't show all the tracks so I wasn't sure what album artist the remaining tracks were under. And it still requires me to select them all and bring up a properties dialog, fill in the AA, then unclick artist... too many steps. All I'm asking is that when I drag into an album or otherwise edit the Album Artist tag that the Artist not change as well. And vice-versa. I can't even understand why anyone would want them to. Of course I wouldn't have to do any extra work if there were an option to tag tracks in the same directory as in the same album during import. And while ripping a CD, the default should be that they all go to the same album regardless if I've already entered in different track artists.

The location tab requires me to traverse into each directory and look to see individually which albums are wrong and that's way more work then the alternatives. Even sorting by location doesn't show up immediately which are wrong. The album tab does, because then the mulitple entries with the same name are easy to spot.

dsavereide
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:47 pm

Post by dsavereide » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:38 pm

Just another note because I keep getting burned by this. It's the most natural thing to edit a field in the browser itself, everybody supports that and I do it all the time without thinking twice. Editing the artist that way should change only the artist. But it keeps changing the Album Artist at the same time and I'm getting frustrated.

Bringing up a property dialog just to change one field is cumbersume and on top of that, it sometimes (not all the time) decides to change the Album Artist to match, requiring me to edit that field as well.

chaoticuniformity
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:28 pm

Post by chaoticuniformity » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:38 pm

Good request.
I'd also like to add on when it comes to songs with multiple artist, it will be better if MM could tell and therefore avoiding listing the same artist several times in the artists category.
e.g
2Pac/Big Syke
2pac/Big Syke/CPO
2Pac/Danny Ray
2Pac/Nate Dogg
50 Cent
50 Cent/Olivia.....
This will reduce clutter and make it easy to find songs.

dsavereide
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:47 pm

Post by dsavereide » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:17 pm

Yes, it would be nice if it could recognize delimiters like / , & and know that the track should be listed for all the listed artists.

A couple days ago I ripped Eric Clapton's Crossroads. Someone had entered in the individual track artists as part of the track name. For example, I Ain't Got You (The Yardbirds). Great, I thought, just use the auto tagger and set it right. It previews "all" of the changes, looks good. But then it also changes the AlbumArtist and I now have seven albums. Grrr. So instead of this cool time saving feature, I now have the extra work of recombining the album.

Now... can someone say that this is the behavior they not only expect but desire? Because I just can't understand why it works this way. If Album Artist were blank and a default value was being provided, maybe. But its not respecting the data that is already there.

Morten
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:31 am
Location: Norway

Post by Morten » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:10 pm

I actually think Album Artist vs. Artist is rather confusing.

Why not use Artist (currently Album Artist) and Contributing artists (currently artist)?
Best regards,
Morten

Al_G
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:01 pm

Post by Al_G » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:01 pm

dsavereide wrote:A couple days ago I ripped Eric Clapton's Crossroads. Someone had entered in the individual track artists as part of the track name. For example, I Ain't Got You (The Yardbirds). Great, I thought, just use the auto tagger and set it right. It previews "all" of the changes, looks good. But then it also changes the AlbumArtist and I now have seven albums. Grrr. So instead of this cool time saving feature, I now have the extra work of recombining the album.

Now... can someone say that this is the behavior they not only expect but desire? Because I just can't understand why it works this way. If Album Artist were blank and a default value was being provided, maybe. But its not respecting the data that is already there.
This came up recently in the Need Help? sub-forum (see Jake Ames' post). It should behave as you expect and I don't know why it isn't for you. I have the same Clapton box set, and it shows as one album in the Album node, with the varied track artists. I have the album artist set to 'Eric Clapton'.

It seems like there's a bug that only some users are seeing. I had the same thing happen to me a long time ago, but now it works as I expect.

Since Ver 3 is moving away from Access database format to SQLlite, I doubt the bug will be resolved in Ver 2.5.

Best I can suggest is to correct the album artist as you encounter the problem. If you have MS Access on your system, try loading the database in that program and run the DB maintenance tool. There may be an indexing problem that it could fix.

mattisse
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:07 am

Post by mattisse » Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:10 am

@dsavereide

I really don't understand what you are complaining about. MM's artist/album artist editing is very well designed.

As long as artist and album artist are the same (which is the case for the majority of tracks), then any changes to the artist are applied to the album artist as well. This is a great behaviour since it save a lot of typing work/errors.

Once you have set the album artist to something different from the artist field, any future changes to the artist will not affect the album artist anymore.

For the vice-versa direction. I've never seen that changes to the album artist have effects on the artist field. When and where have you observed such a behaviour?

dsavereide
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:47 pm

Post by dsavereide » Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:34 pm

I estimate one third of my library is multi-artist. And while you are technically correct to say a majority are single artist, we're still talking hundreds here.

Examples of the vice-versa when tracks of the same album have been split up into several albums and you are trying to recombine them:

If you select an album from the left list pane it brings up a properties dialog that only displays Album Title and Album Artist. Change the AlbumArtist here and it might also change the Artist fields on all the tracks to match. Or if you do the most natural thing, which is to simply drag the tracks into the main album, the same thing can happen. Or, select the tracks in one of these psuedo albums, bring up the track properties dialog and change the album artist, the artist field might change and the box will be checked. At least there I can uncheck.

It seems to me that the most signifcant thing about the AlbumArtist is that it must be the same for each track in an album. There is no real need for it to match the Artist. So if you change Artist and forget AlbumArtist, its not a big deal. But if you chage Artist and it changes the AlbumArtist incorrectly, it's a destructive act. And vice-versa especially so. Also isn't the Artist usually correct? How often are you changing the Artist for the entire album? Usually, I find myself changing just a few tracks for those exceptions. And that's when it gets messy.

Al_G, you say you have Crossroads and it looks correct. It looks correct to me now too because I edited all the album artists back to Eric Clapton. But did you go through the steps I described with no problems?

I think it's trying too hard to maintain these two fields in sync. They are distinct.

mattisse
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:07 am

Post by mattisse » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:42 am

Ah ok, thanks. Now I could replicate the behaviour you criticize.
Never had used the property dialog from the left pane nor dragged songs from one node to another album node.
I usually edited album data by selcting all songs and opening the properties. This worked very well.

But I agree with you that handling of artist/album artist should be changed for the first 2 methods as they make the behaviour very inconsistent.

Al_G
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:01 pm

Post by Al_G » Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:06 am

dsavereide wrote:Al_G, you say you have Crossroads and it looks correct. It looks correct to me now too because I edited all the album artists back to Eric Clapton. But did you go through the steps I described with no problems?
I had these problems some time ago (almost 2 years?) but what would happen is that the 'Album Artist' would revert to the 'Track Artist' for indivual tracks, i.e. 'Eric Clapton' would be changed to 'The Yardbirds'. The track artist was never changed. This would create more than one albums with 'Crossroads' in the album artist node, as you, Jake, and others have mentioned.

The weird thing is that with 'Crossroads', only a couple tracks gave me trouble. I had the same thing happen with Rod Stewart's "Story Teller" and David Bowie's "Sound + Vision". These are CDs that I own, and ripped, at first using CDex then EAC when I re-ripped to FLAC.

At first I had to correct the tags any time I ran the maintenance command. It seemed to fix itself and I haven't had any problems in the last 1.5 years or so.

Now that I thnik about it, the problems went away after I re-ripped all my CDs to FLAC (using EAC). I don't download music or use the Amazon tag function.

dsavereide
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:47 pm

Post by dsavereide » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:23 pm

I was thinking about what you said... that only if the artist and the album artist is the same are they edited in unison. Maybe the compramise fix is that only when all the tracks have the same artist, the album artist would be edited as well. That way, it would never split up an album as a side-effect of editing the artist of a few tracks, but you could keep them in sync.

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