Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

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rovingcowboy
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by rovingcowboy »

@ If0 and nohitter151 and peke.

i in no way was telling anyone to use only skins. i was also not saying there are no skins that resemble vista or windows 7, and i am not saying the developers should not keep up with the non skin mode.

when ever some one posts a wish or something dealing with the non skin mode it is my concern they did not even look at the skinned mode of monkey out of habit from use of their old program, so i mention try the skins.

as to asking for images of what they look like it is cause i don't have ipod or itunes vista or win7 and have no idea what they look like unless i see an image. or you tell me in 40,000 words what they look like. i see images and understand images faster then words. so a screen shot with your wish circled in it will let me know what is wanted, and i can tell if that can be made in a skin,. which i might consider doing if possible because there are members that use skins that would like to use a navtive looking skin at some time but want to change to another one later,

that is why i mention skins all the time and why i ask for images of wishes. i don't use non skinned mode as if you needed to be told that. :roll:

@ djshack
iTunes 8 just looks flat (XP style) against other windows (as does MediaMonkey currently in any theme, except non-themed). I don't mind good themes, but I just want them to fit in with the glossy, shiny, and dimensional look of Aero.
can you tell me what you mean shiny, i tried to make a few of my skins look shiny already but i'm not sure if i got what you wanted. two skins of mine i know of that i tried the shiny look on.
monkey hi fi. is kind of like a dull shine, and on tangerine monkey, the tray is class shiny which one is what you want and where should the shine be placed.

and does not morten's itunes or nohitter151's skins or any of the other itune look alike skins do what you want.?
i don't know what your talking about with a shadow where? how as windows covering the main list view having their shadow on the list view? that is programmed sprites some programs have those in but are only showed up by drivers on certian video cards. take for example the program i used for images of the aqua bluee reef skin i did. the main background images are from the ocean dive game and screensaver program, in that program it has sprites that cause light effects that simulate sunlight hitting the sand under the water where the surface of the water will change the light and move it back and forth with the wave action. now on my skin the only way you can see any sprite action is the bubbles i used. but those are hard images which flash on the screen where i made them with different sized bubbles to get that distance and shine look. this computer i use can not show the sprites programmed in to the ocean view program cause of the old video card i have.

so the only way we can get shine and sprite actions for shadows is to have the developers put the sprites in to the program. but they will only show up on certian video cards. for all other video cards it is up to us skinners to try and make hard images with them on that will show in the skin and give the same effect. like making a 3d skin. the one that i know comes close to this is eyal he has some good 3d skins but not shiny or floating on the screen with shadows that move cause he is like the rest of us stuck at the use of the theme engine and the use of the viewers video card. and no i checked the drivers on the old cards can not be updated to show those sprites the video cards need updated to those used on vista or win7.
or to one of the ones by nvidea or ati that can use the sprites on xp. but no os older then xp is going to be able to see those sprites.

so @ everyone
does that clear up some of the reasons mediamonkey does not show all the effects of vista or win7 and why i metion skins all the time..

:)
roving cowboy / keith hall. My skins http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... =9&t=16724 for some help check on Monkey's helpful messages at http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... 4008#44008 MY SYSTEMS.1.Jukebox WinXp pro sp 3 version 3.5 gigabyte mb. 281 GHz amd athlon x2 240 built by me.) 2.WinXP pro sp3, vers 2.5.5 and vers 3.5 backup storage, shuttle 32a mb,734 MHz amd athlon put together by me.) 3.Dell demension, winxp pro sp3, mm3.5 spare jukebox.) 4.WinXp pro sp3, vers 3.5, dad's computer bought from computer store. )5. Samsung Galaxy 5 Android 5) 6. amd a8-5600 apu 3.60ghz mm version 4 windows 7 pro bought from computer store.
lf0
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by lf0 »

Maybe we should break down the issues, so separate bugs can be opened (or should we first of all open a separate thread for each issue?).
Thus developers can better cope with the problems, as a "fix everything" is not a one-step operation.

Here is my list of independent bugs/feature requests:

Non-Skinned Version

1) List and Tree Views don't use the Aero theme.

Code: Select all

SetWindowTheme(AHandle, 'explorer', nil);
Could be a solution to the problem. See here.
Current look:
Image
Result should look like:
Image

2) Menus don't use the Aero theme.
Current look:
Image
Correct look:
Image

3) Seek bar and volume control should use a proper slider.
Current look:
Image
Should be like:
Image

Skinned Version

1) Make use of DWM to allow transparent/glass Windows in theme definitions
Already exists as bug 2746.

2) Enable dropshadows for the main window.
Look with non-skinned exe:
Image
Look with skins enabled:
Image
rovingcowboy
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by rovingcowboy »

lf0 wrote:Maybe we should break down the issues, so separate bugs can be opened (or should we first of all open a separate thread for each issue?).
Thus developers can better cope with the problems, as a "fix everything" is not a one-step operation.

Here is my list of independent bugs/feature requests:

Non-Skinned Version

1) List and Tree Views don't use the Aero theme.

Code: Select all

SetWindowTheme(AHandle, 'explorer', nil);
Could be a solution to the problem. See here.
Result should look like:
Image

2) Menus don't use the Aero theme.
Current look:
Image
Correct look:
Image

3) Seek bar and volume control should use a proper slider.
Current look:
Image
Should be like:
Image

Skinned Version

1) Make use of DWM to allow transparent/glass Windows in theme definitions
Already exists as bug 2746.

2) Enable dropshadows for the main window.
Look with non-skinned exe:
Image
Look with skins enabled:
Image
your non skinned version one can be done in skins as in the image you show you want a blue line or light dual tone color on the list view for selected or non selected items. this can be done by adding bmp's to those items in the object tree of the skin for the theme. part of monkeys skins. the images just have to be made prior to look like that.

your non skinned version two is the same in the skinned version the drop down panels are made to use a certain color we can change that by changing the color number or by adding a image to that item in the theme mskn file.
i have made them transparent and have made the whole main theme listviews transparent where you can see the background which is the desktop through the list of songs. and the scroll bars. this how ever is only done in the theme skinning engine and when i tested it in the use of monkey all backgrounds went black.
so only removal of drawing the background client for the theme is possible only in the skinning engine, the skin when used will still draw the client. even if the client's color in the theme mskn file is set to the transparet color.

the correct image you show is telling me you also are wanting the select image changed. that can be done also by just changing the image or adding an image to the object in the skin's theme mskn file. like it would be for the list view.

your number three in the non skin mode is the same as above can be changed to look that way by changing images for the buttons in the theme mskn file.

all your backgrounds can be done with matching colors to the one wanted in the skin mode all the images for the buttons and sliders are able to be made your exact skin can be created in the skin mode.

your number one and two for your skin mode
are the issue of the sprites being added to the medimonkey program or the use of windows os sprites being used. if they put them in the vista and win 7 os's but it is also going to go back to the use of the video card on the users computer.

how ever there is one way to make the shadows but it will bloat the monkey beyound the size of my concert skin's mb size.
this is to create secondary blank window with transparent inside area and fuzzy black outline to be a shadow, then program monkey to use these images in vector style graphics and show them around the edges of any undocked window or minimized main theme window. but as i said that will need tons of extra added images in monkey and tons of code for monkey to make them vector in size to the edge of the windows monkey creates.

so i think the sprites being turned on for use of window's own sprites if they are there or making the sprites needed be in the code for mediamonkey is the best bet on that since they wont add many mb's to the program. unlike extra images will. :)

now your saying i answered all your non skin with skin mode answers. that is because the code is the same in the non skin mode as peke said only the code for using outside of exe skins is missing in the non skinned exe.
roving cowboy / keith hall. My skins http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... =9&t=16724 for some help check on Monkey's helpful messages at http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... 4008#44008 MY SYSTEMS.1.Jukebox WinXp pro sp 3 version 3.5 gigabyte mb. 281 GHz amd athlon x2 240 built by me.) 2.WinXP pro sp3, vers 2.5.5 and vers 3.5 backup storage, shuttle 32a mb,734 MHz amd athlon put together by me.) 3.Dell demension, winxp pro sp3, mm3.5 spare jukebox.) 4.WinXp pro sp3, vers 3.5, dad's computer bought from computer store. )5. Samsung Galaxy 5 Android 5) 6. amd a8-5600 apu 3.60ghz mm version 4 windows 7 pro bought from computer store.
lf0
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by lf0 »

rovingcowboy wrote:now your saying i answered all your non skin with skin mode answers. that is because the code is the same in the non skin mode as peke said only the code for using outside of exe skins is missing in the non skinned exe.
What is your point? First you say "i in no way was telling anyone to use only skins" then all you say is "USE SKINS!".
There are problems with the non-skinned version under Aero which can be solved, just accept it.

You can more or less work around some of the issues when using skins in a very sloppy way. As I stated earlier this is a very, very bad approach. Why have a non-skinned version at all when the only way to get a half-decent native look is to use skins?

You propose ugly workarounds, I want proper solutions.

Please stay on topic, as I deliberately distinguished between "your" skinned version and the non-skinned one.
rovingcowboy
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by rovingcowboy »

no i am not telling you to use skins, i am just telling you it can be made in a skin.

and that the code is the same in the non skin mode but we can't change that it has to be changed by the developers. i typed out where the locations of what can be changed in the skin mode so when the developers read this they can get a faster idea of what is wanted. or a skinner can come by and see this and if they wanted to make the skin before anyone else then they could see what is being needed some skinners are still just learning or not sure what is needed on some things.

the developers are not all in the same country and neither are all the members here, so repeating things in different ways helps when the online translaters muck up one way it might get a few more words correct in the second statement.

so my saying things differently just kind of happened from posting a lot. i just add in as much info for a situation as i can think of for as many different reasons as possible to think about.
but i am still not saying to only use a skin. and your qoute of mine i am just confirming that peke said what i said in a different way. :) i use to describe the non skin mode and the skin mode as the same only the non skin mode was using a skin we could not change, called a non skin skin, until peke got me to understand it only used the code in the non skinned exe and no images. if that old description helps?
if that does not help then i can't say anything to you cause you blocked out any comment about something dealing without a non skinned answer.

your new here and all i do is try to answer with best answers known at the moment by users of mediamonkey, and bring the newbies up to what was going on from square one to what is going on now in mm 3.1.
in other words i mix in history of what is going on and let options be known just cause you don't want those options does not mean some one else reading the thread will not. this forum is unlike any other you been in. here we all help as much in any form room we can its like one big open playground where we all hear the question no matter how far away we are from the person and we all shout back an answer.
:D
roving cowboy / keith hall. My skins http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... =9&t=16724 for some help check on Monkey's helpful messages at http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... 4008#44008 MY SYSTEMS.1.Jukebox WinXp pro sp 3 version 3.5 gigabyte mb. 281 GHz amd athlon x2 240 built by me.) 2.WinXP pro sp3, vers 2.5.5 and vers 3.5 backup storage, shuttle 32a mb,734 MHz amd athlon put together by me.) 3.Dell demension, winxp pro sp3, mm3.5 spare jukebox.) 4.WinXp pro sp3, vers 3.5, dad's computer bought from computer store. )5. Samsung Galaxy 5 Android 5) 6. amd a8-5600 apu 3.60ghz mm version 4 windows 7 pro bought from computer store.
lf0
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by lf0 »

rovingcowboy wrote:but i am still not saying to only use a skin. and your qoute of mine i am just confirming that peke said what i said in a different way. :) i use to describe the non skin mode and the skin mode as the same only the non skin mode was using a skin we could not change, called a non skin skin, until peke got me to understand it only used the code in the non skinned exe and no images. if that old description helps?
Sorry, I am a developer and so I can understand what is going on.
And I do not propose to use some custom drawing routines using bitmaps in the non-skinned version. My proposed solutions are purely based on code. That is, Windows offers functions to allow developers to use native widgets directly or make use of the native drawing functions to draw widgets. Sometimes you have to set proper flags so it will make use of the new Aero code-path other times you have to call the theme API directly to let windows paint certain elements when using custom widgets. And I doubt any real developer has a problem to understand what I mean in my above list of bugs with the screenshots.

And of course it is clear that the source code has to be modified to solve the issues. That's why this is a bug report/feature request!

Again, that's why I distinguished between the skinned and non-skinned version as the general problem is rather clear to me. How single problems can/will be solved naturally depends on the current code base and only the involved developers can tell us how much effort it would be to solve them.
rovingcowboy
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by rovingcowboy »

lf0 wrote:
rovingcowboy wrote:but i am still not saying to only use a skin. and your qoute of mine i am just confirming that peke said what i said in a different way. :) i use to describe the non skin mode and the skin mode as the same only the non skin mode was using a skin we could not change, called a non skin skin, until peke got me to understand it only used the code in the non skinned exe and no images. if that old description helps?
Sorry, I am a developer and so I can understand what is going on.
And I do not propose to use some custom drawing routines using bitmaps in the non-skinned version. My proposed solutions are purely based on code. That is, Windows offers functions to allow developers to use native widgets directly or make use of the native drawing functions to draw widgets. Sometimes you have to set proper flags so it will make use of the new Aero code-path other times you have to call the theme API directly to let windows paint certain elements when using custom widgets. And I doubt any real developer has a problem to understand what I mean in my above list of bugs with the screenshots.

And of course it is clear that the source code has to be modified to solve the issues. That's why this is a bug report/feature request!

Again, that's why I distinguished between the skinned and non-skinned version as the general problem is rather clear to me. How single problems can/will be solved naturally depends on the current code base and only the involved developers can tell us how much effort it would be to solve them.
i figured you was a programmer with some of your discriptions you did. as they lost me in the wording. but as i said in the images i could see what you wanted to do.
i think rusty and jire and peke and ludek and the other developers around here do ignore what i say when i try to describe what might be going on but they let me post it anyway, which i think is cause of the bad online translators my bad discriptions just might get translated right by them? :)

hey you might be able to help with monkey if you have time check with rusty and jiri and see if you too can kind of fix code or find out what is causing errors on your spare time like nohitter151 and lowlander and i think technojnky do. the more programmers helping the better monkey gets.
:D
roving cowboy / keith hall. My skins http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... =9&t=16724 for some help check on Monkey's helpful messages at http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... 4008#44008 MY SYSTEMS.1.Jukebox WinXp pro sp 3 version 3.5 gigabyte mb. 281 GHz amd athlon x2 240 built by me.) 2.WinXP pro sp3, vers 2.5.5 and vers 3.5 backup storage, shuttle 32a mb,734 MHz amd athlon put together by me.) 3.Dell demension, winxp pro sp3, mm3.5 spare jukebox.) 4.WinXp pro sp3, vers 3.5, dad's computer bought from computer store. )5. Samsung Galaxy 5 Android 5) 6. amd a8-5600 apu 3.60ghz mm version 4 windows 7 pro bought from computer store.
nohitter151
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by nohitter151 »

lf0 wrote: This is the vice-versa request, as it is for transparency support in the themed version not the "non-skinned" one.
Non-skinned already supports transparency and aero.
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by nohitter151 »

rovingcowboy wrote: your non skinned version one can be done in skins as in the image you show you want a blue line or light dual tone color on the list view for selected or non selected items.
RC, please, don't stoke the flames in this thread any more. The features outlined in this request can not be themed.
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djshack
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by djshack »

lf0 wrote:Maybe we should break down the issues, so separate bugs can be opened (or should we first of all open a separate thread for each issue?).
Thus developers can better cope with the problems, as a "fix everything" is not a one-step operation.

Here is my list of independent bugs/feature requests:

Non-Skinned Version

1) List and Tree Views don't use the Aero theme.

Code: Select all

SetWindowTheme(AHandle, 'explorer', nil);
Could be a solution to the problem. See here.
Current look:
Image
Result should look like:
Image

2) Menus don't use the Aero theme.
Current look:
Image
Correct look:
Image

3) Seek bar and volume control should use a proper slider.
Current look:
Image
Should be like:
Image

Skinned Version

1) Make use of DWM to allow transparent/glass Windows in theme definitions
Already exists as bug 2746.

2) Enable dropshadows for the main window.
Look with non-skinned exe:
Image
Look with skins enabled:
Image
This covers everything I intended. Perfect.
Peke
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by Peke »

Noted, written, and checking.

Has anyone taken the notes that 3.1.2 is bugfix release not even minor release, there is no need to talk which is better or not. Both have its advantages and limitations, so be constructive more than arguing.

@lf0
Have you tested your code on Win2k, WinME or Win 98SE?
Best regards,
Pavle
MediaMonkey Team lead QA/Tech Support guru
Admin of Free MediaMonkey addon Site HappyMonkeying
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lf0
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by lf0 »

Peke wrote:Have you tested your code on Win2k, WinME or Win 98SE?
You can (or should) only make the particular call to SetWindowTheme under Vista and above, so there is no change in behavior under the other systems.
(Atleast for this particular modification...)

Just use GetProcAddress / GetModuleHandle and you should be fine - and of course use GetVersionEx .. I don't use Delphi but this might also help: Four Ways to Detect Vista (make sure it detects 7 too ;-))
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by rovingcowboy »

nohitter151 wrote:
rovingcowboy wrote: your non skinned version one can be done in skins as in the image you show you want a blue line or light dual tone color on the list view for selected or non selected items.
RC, please, don't stoke the flames in this thread any more. The features outlined in this request can not be themed.
sorry nohitter151 but in the images i got after i asked for them i replyed and those images can be done in the skin mode. to get the same looking results as i had said in my reply. the only ones that cant be easy to do is the shadow. but as If0 and me have talked about my suggestion to look at the skins is not really what he wants.
which is fine, he knows i was not telling him to use them i was just putting the info there for others to see,

but i might even beable to give it a shadow image on the main theme. it just means it won't be a real one to give it a 3d effect like is wanted but it could be there. just by adjusting the images used on the theme. all graphics can be done in images but certian graphics effects used to give 3d effects don't work in the way requested.
:)
roving cowboy / keith hall. My skins http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... =9&t=16724 for some help check on Monkey's helpful messages at http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... 4008#44008 MY SYSTEMS.1.Jukebox WinXp pro sp 3 version 3.5 gigabyte mb. 281 GHz amd athlon x2 240 built by me.) 2.WinXP pro sp3, vers 2.5.5 and vers 3.5 backup storage, shuttle 32a mb,734 MHz amd athlon put together by me.) 3.Dell demension, winxp pro sp3, mm3.5 spare jukebox.) 4.WinXp pro sp3, vers 3.5, dad's computer bought from computer store. )5. Samsung Galaxy 5 Android 5) 6. amd a8-5600 apu 3.60ghz mm version 4 windows 7 pro bought from computer store.
Goodog
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by Goodog »

Hi Guys

I support this request 100% and I think a perfect way to illustrate what I'm looking for is to have a look at Eyal's Helium look-alike skin....http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... =9&t=41695

In this post Eyal has posted what Helium actually looks like with full windows vista/7 support including transparency etc and then what he has managed to do with regard to skining MediaMonkey to apporximate this look. And an excellent job he has done especially with the gDark skin. But I would really like MediaMonkey to have a more 'native' look like Helium does. Obviously I don't want it to look like Helium, just to support the OS better in a native mode.....


Goodog
lf0
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Re: Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

Post by lf0 »

Ok, here are some updates of my findings. I wrote them to Peke directly too, but maybe someone else is interested or able to comment on this.

1) The list view and tree view used in MM are based on Soft Gems Virtual Treeview, an updated version enabled the use of Vista Aero styled items. So either an update of the component should help or a backport of the fixes made (using the SetWindowTheme approach).

2) The menu is based on TBXToolbar, which obviously lacks support for the Vista (and 7) Aero specific enhancements to the UxTheme API.
Thus, instead of drawing a plain area, something like

Code: Select all

DrawThemeBackground(MENU_THEME, DC, MENU_BARITEM, MBI_HOT, rect, 0);
and

Code: Select all

DrawThemeBackground(MENU_THEME, DC, MENU_POPUPITEM, MBI_HOT, rect, 0);
should be used on Vista/7 (with correct MBI_* branching of course).

See the Visual Styles Reference for details.

Taking a short look at the TBX source it should be fairly straight forward. Add the MENU_* and MBI_* definitions from the Vista/7 SDK, assign MENU_THEME via OpenThemeData, then do the appropriate rendering (DrawThemeBackground) in TTBXDefaultTheme.PaintMenuItemFrame and TTBXDefaultTheme.PaintButton and probably some more places.
This is untested as I don't have Delphi (haven't used it for like 10 years or so ...) but should work :lol:. Of course this should also only be done under Vista/7 as the specific UxTheme elements are new.

3) The seekbar should be easy to replace with a proper Trackbar/Scrollbar widget.

All in all it seems to be not that hard to fix after all.
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