Newly-imported tracks default to ratings "bomb" [#2147]

[nohitter151]

WMP may read POPM and interpret it incorrectly but that is just a bug - neither Windows Explorer nor WMP claim to write POPM data and force their bugginess on the rest of the world; MM does.

Sorry, but wrong again. Rate a track in Windows explorer and open it in a tag viewer. POPM is used.

Also don't miss Lowlander's last post, he makes a lot of good points in it:
http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... 40#p275060

[gk]

Yes, but it READS the POPM tag from mp3 files. Verify it this way: tag an mp3 file in MM. Open that file in WMP. See that it is rated.

I have tried what you suggested but I am seeing the opposite of what you say.

I think we need to be specific about exactly what versions of what software we are talking about.
What version of WMP and Windows are you using?

I am using this:
Windows Media Player Version 11.0.5721.5280
Windows XP SP3, with all the latest updates

What I observe is the following.

1. I rate an mp3 file as 'worst', using MediaMonkey

2. I open the file in a text editor and verify that the POPM frame rating was written as 0x00

The complete POPM frame that Media Monkey writes is as follows:

Code: Select all

    50 4F 50 4D 00 00 00 0E 00 00 6E 6F 40 65 6D 61 69 6C 00 00 00 00 00 00
    P  O  P  M           14       n  o  @  e  m  a  i  l     0

3. I open the same mp3 file in WMP version 11.0.5721.5280 and observe that it is 'unrated' - no stars.

So, you claim that MM is compatible with WMP but what I have described above is just the opposite: incompatibility.
If MM were read-compatible with WMP, then WMP should have read the POPM tag 'worst' rating and displayed it with one star.

It appears that WMP is actually compatible with the id3v2.3 spec on this point - in the same way that J. River Media Center is.

[gk]

Rate a track in Windows explorer and open it in a tag viewer. POPM is used.

What verson of Windows explorer are you talking about?

I am using Windows XP SP3 and I do not see any way to 'rate' an mp3 file, using POPM data. Also, I don't know what you mean by 'tag viewer' - is this something in Windows 7? In WMP 11 I have "Advanced Tag Viewer", but it does not support editing POPM.

[gk]

PS. In the following it mentions that the WMP implementation of POPM is used: http://www.mediamonkey.com/sw/webhelp/f ... erties.htm

Please provide a link to what is the "WMP implementation" of POPM.
I have searched quite awhile and cannot find any reference to any such thing.

From what I have found, it looks like Windows saves the ratings in it own database file, which has different locations on different versions of Windows.
It is called "CurrentDatabase_360.wmdb", in WMP v11

Please see this discussion:
http://zachd.com/pss/pss.html#medialibrary

I believe the author of the above FAQ is/was a Microsoft WMP developer - he states that ratings and play count data are not saved in the POPM tag.

[nohitter151]

I have Windows 7 and WMP 12. In win 7 (probably XP as well) you can right click an mp3 file > Properties > Details tab. You can change mp3 tags there.

Re: viewing tracks in WMP... what exactly do you mean 'worst'? Bomb rating? of course that shows as unrated in WMP, it doesn't have any equivalent for 'Bomb' to display.

PS: You're right that WMP doesn't save ID tags for ratings by default. But that's because you have to enable it in the options. Tools > Options > Library tab, 'Maintain my star ratings as global ratings in files'

Even more: see the mp3tag website which clearly states WMP uses POPM tag:
http://help.mp3tag.de/main_tags.html

[gk]

Re: viewing tracks in WMP... what exactly do you mean 'worst'? Bomb rating? of course that shows as unrated in WMP, it doesn't have any equivalent for 'Bomb' to display.

Am I wrong to assume that MediaMonkey defines the 'bomb' rating to mean 'worst'?

PS: You're right that WMP doesn't save ID tags for ratings by default. But that's because you have to enable it in the options. Tools > Options > Library tab, 'Maintain my star ratings as global ratings in files'

I have always had that option enabled but I have never found it to result in writing anything to the POPM frames.
Since the reference to "global ratings in files" does not say which files, I assume it refers to Microsoft proprietary database, or other files; not to the mp3 files.

Are you sure you have evidence that WMP writes anything to the POPM frame? Could you post the exact hex data, as I have done?

[nohitter151]

I don't see why you're so obsessed with what/whether WMP writes to tag. The point is what it READS from the tag, not what it writes.

PS here is the data you wanted:

[gk]

Even more: see the mp3tag website which clearly states WMP uses POPM tag:
http://help.mp3tag.de/main_tags.html

The link you cite above only claims that WMP 10 used POPM tag in some way - it doesn't even say read or write.

In any case, mp3tag is not an authority on the subject. Moreover, this is contradicted by the WMP FAQ page which I previously cited, saying the opposite is true.
If what you are saying is true, it shouldn't be hard to find an official Microsoft document supporting your theory - I have searched but found nothing of the kind.

Many users seem to be confused about exactly what 'files' WMP writes to - nobody has presented any evidence that WMP writes POPM data.
I would like to verify your claims about WMP 12 myself, but it is "available only in Windows 7"

At last count, there are more of us Windows XP users than users of Windows 7, so the claim that users are better served by compatibility with WMP 12 seems to fall a bit flat.

[nohitter151]

More evidence:
http://geekozoid.blogspot.com/2008/03/p ... ndows.html
http://blogs.technet.com/b/kclemson/arc ... 71992.aspx

Related to MM:
http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=3143
http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... =7&t=40532

From the microsoft website:
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7716/wmprating2.png
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/wind ... tings&prd=

I don't know what else to post, there's plenty of evidence that WMP saves ratings to files (which is not relevant anyway, the point is that it reads POPM in a non-standard way).. not that any of that matters because whatever I post you don't believe, though I've posted hard evidence.

--

Look, I don't mean to sound like a jerk here. But I've been around MM long enough that I've seen every side of every argument from "the MM team spends too much time on iPod support" vs. "OMG it's been 1 week since the new iOS update and MM STILL ISN'T compatible?? that's unacceptable!!" and issues like "MM doesn't conform EXACTLY to XYZ standard" vs. "why doesn't MM cater to [insert obscure tag field/multimedia format/other multimedia program]?". The point is, you can't make everyone happy. MediaMonkey serves millions of users and not every user can get what they want, because sometimes two users want the exact opposite thing. I would say in 99% of cases, the MM development team knows what will serve the majority of those users best. And for the other 1%, they are certainly willing to change the way they do things and make updates. But for this case, it's clear that it falls into that 99% category. The majority of users care about compatibility with WMP and Windows explorer, not the official ID3 POPM standard. And if you don't like how MM handles ratings? Fine. You can totally disable MM from tagging POPM to the files.

[gk]

More evidence:
http://geekozoid.blogspot.com/2008/03/p ... ndows.html
http://blogs.technet.com/b/kclemson/arc ... 71992.aspx

Related to MM:
http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=3143
http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... =7&t=40532

From the microsoft website:
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7716/wmprating2.png
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/wind ... tings&prd=

I have read all 6 of the links you posted above and NONE of them claims that WMP reads or writes to the POPM tag.

I don't know what else to post, there's plenty of evidence that WMP saves ratings to files (which is not relevant anyway, the point is that it reads POPM in a non-standard way).. not that any of that matters because whatever I post you don't believe, though I've posted hard evidence.

You could post ONE specific, verifiable example of what you claim to be true. Just one.

I have challenged you to provide evidence of the "De-facto POPM implementation" which you claim exists, but you haven't done so.

You could do as I have done:
1. Make a claim, that someone else could test, such as:

"WMP v12 writes worst rating as 0x00 POPM field, and is therefore compatible with MediaMonkey"
OR
"WMP v11 reads 0x00 from the POPM field and displays 'worst' rating, and is therefore read-compatible with MediaMonkey"

You have done neither so far whereas I have provided proof that the second is NOT true (WMP v11 is NOT compatible with MM, in reading 0x00 as 'worst').

You could post links to pages that actually make claims, and provide evidence about POPM compatibility.

Furthermore, all the stuff that you have cited in the MM bug database also fails to give any detail about exactly how MM claims to be 'compatible'.

2. You could post a list of steps to reproduce whatever claim you make.

I have done this for my claims, such as:

CLAIM1:
"MediaMonkey (latest version) is not compatible with id3v2.3 POPM specification"

PROOF1:
I have cited the spec as proof, as well as experimental steps to reproduce, include exact byte-for-byte hex data

You have claimed:

no one else follows the spec either!

I have refuted your claim already in this thread, showing exactly how J River Media Center is compatible.
I have also shown how WMP11 is compatible with id3v2.3 POPM spec and that MM is not.
I have providing steps to reproduce, including hex data from MM, JRiver POPM frames.

This is the type of thing that is needed: facts, not hand-waving or unverifiable claims.

Why don't you just tell us exactly what is this "De-facto POPM implementation" that you claim to be compatible with - be specific in terms of star ratings and POPM data.

[nohitter151]

Why don't you just tell us exactly what is this "De-facto POPM implementation" that you claim to be compatible with - be specific in terms of star ratings and POPM data.

I have already posted that:
http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... ng#p226576

I'm done with this thread.

[gk]

Why don't you just tell us exactly what is this "De-facto POPM implementation" that you claim to be compatible with - be specific in terms of star ratings and POPM data.

I have already posted that:
http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... ng#p226576
I'm done with this thread.

That link only discusses how MM maps its own POPM values to star ratings.
It says nothing about your claim of any sort of "POPM standard" compliance.

You have claimed that there exists a "De-facto" (Microsoft/WMP) "POPM implementation" which MM is compatible with.
Where is it?
Microsoft doesn't claim any such thing.
I see no evidence of it in WMP v11?

Where is the 'hard evidence' you claim for this?

[rovingcowboy]

it seems that ms has possible changed the mediacenter players way of rating and did not tell anyone.

this could be the cause of the trouble with ratings between the mediamonkey player and the mediamonkey theme.

as the theme shows 4 stars but the player shows 3.5 stars. so there is something in the code messed up big berny has noted this last spring some time and even rusty or jiri or one of the other developers of monkey have noted this rating issue.

but as to when they can get it fixed is only to when they can find the cause of it. maybe this is the cause of it.

i say that because we all know ms changed their player from each version so that the previous versions power toys did not work with the new wmp. so this media center player might have given us the same treatment.

[gk]

To sum up the discussion so far -

The original question has been answered by me and nobody has expressed a difference of opinion so far: the "bomb" on import is being caused by MM wrongly interpreting "unrated" values in the POPM frame (0x00) as indicating a rating of "worst" (bomb).

These are the issues, as I see it:

1. MM should not violate the id3v2.3 spec by hijacking the POPM frame with its own semantics for 'worst', 'best' - just use another frame
2. MM should not be claiming to follow an alleged WMP 'POPM standard' that is not published anywhere
3. MM should certainly not be writing invalid POPM data ('worst'=0x00; 'best'=0xFC) by default, even if this can be disabled by editing the .ini file

I really don't have any problem with how MM maps star ratings, or how these correspond to WMP, since I don't use it and there don't appear to be problems in Windows XP (WMP v11) that I have found anyway.

[gk]

Since it has been argued, in this thread, that MM's desire for 'compatibility' with WMP v12 (Windows 7 only) justifies incompatibility with id3v2.3 POPM standard, here are the latest statistics on Windows 7 usage:
http://www.crn.com/news/applications-os ... -vista.htm

....Windows 7 has a long way to go to overtake the aging Windows XP, which still has more than double the market share of Windows 7 and Vista combined despite being almost nine years old.....Windows XP still held a 61.9 percent market share in July. While the number of users of that desktop operating system have been on a long, slow decline – it had more than 70 percent of the market one year ago and has lost 5.9 points of share since the first of the year – it will be some time before the Windows XP and Windows 7 market share lines cross.