sorting by song title issue

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howesjohn
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sorting by song title issue

Post by howesjohn »

I have been using the playlist to delete duplicates as they pop up. The new beta version uses the playlist to randomly shuffle songs sequentially. When I try to sort the database by titles, the program goes haywire. I know I can use the files to edit. But it is easier to do duplicate deletes and star rating maintenance if I can see duplicate titles as they play. I figure I have about 2000 duplicates I want to delete.
Rob_S
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Rob_S »

Given the decision was made to change now playing to play in displayed order, (shuffled or otherwise) I cannot fathom why they decided it should not play in Title order when you sort the now playing display by Title.

It also appears that if you sort the now playing by a column header such as say title, the display no longer focuses on the song currently playing, which means you would have to search the list to find it. This is also true in the playing node.
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Barry4679
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Barry4679 »

I have read these two posts a couple of times, but still cannot understand the issue.
It is like I came in part way through the conversation, or you guys are talking in code :)
"Now Playing" is the Playing panel?
I don't use MM to play music, so I don't have any experience with the MM Playlist facility, but I gave this a try anyway. I cannot replicate the problem.

I queued up a static playlist with tracks from a couple of albums, and started it playing.
I had the "Playing" view open in the main panel, and also had the "Playing" panel open in the rhs column.

I resequenced the main panel view to be sorted by song title.
I noticed that the Context menu in the Playing" panel on the rhs had a menu item named "Save New Order" (alt + F5). I pressed that.

Play continues, now using the new sequence, and the currently playing track is highlighted and focused open, as expected.

You are not doing the "Save New Order" menu thing? ... It is new?
It does seem wrong that this menu option is available only in the context menu on the RHS panel, ie. not in the hamburger menu.

Also, IMO detecting the currently track is not optimal. MM5 insists upon nominating a "selected" track in a list even when you haven't clicked anything. The "selected" track is more noticeable than the currently playing track.

Apologies if this is not whatever you are talking about. :)

Tested using 5.1.0.2832
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Rob_S
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Rob_S »

I believe the OP is trying to play shuffled, while having his "now playing" window in "List" view sorted in title order by column header. This used to be possible in old version where shuffle was picked at random from the list, regardless of display order.

In the current version doing this seems to throw everything into dissaray, and for me at least, it no longer focuses on the current song. The "save order" button I did not know about either, and it is not present in the "Now playing" menu, only in the "Playing" node, which I don't use.

When the principle of the now playing window is that it plays in display order, I do not understand the need for a save order button in the first place.

See also this thread

https://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=105666

I think they've got themselves tied in knots over this whole thing, which should be really simple. Whatever order the list is in is the order it plays.

If that can't be accepted, then bring back the old way, and create a clean option for the new way, and have both methods available, not somehow messed together.
Using 5.1 LATEST alpha or beta build on Windows 10, HP laptop, managing 13k tracks
howesjohn
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by howesjohn »

Agreed, I was fine with the way the "playlist" used to work before I downloaded the beta.
Rob_S
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Rob_S »

To me the two options seem so simple:

1) Play in displayed order - no exceptions, no original order. To play shuffled, the shuffle button "randomizes" the list with no change in mode. If you sort the list by any means, including column header, randomize, or drag and drop, it should always play the next song in the sorted list. Queue next or queue last and next, previous always work as expected. If you want this list saved in any particular sorted or random order, then save it as a playlist, hopefully with the option to include where you were at.

2) Play as loaded or random basically the old way. If shuffle button is pressed it turns on Random mode and plays entirely at random from the list. Queue next, and next, previous do NOT work in this mode. While playing shuffled you can sort the list by any header or randomize or restore original loaded order, and the playing order is not affected. If you do not turn on shuffle, it will play in the as-loaded order. If you drag and drop additional titles, they can be placed anywhere. In shuffle mode it does not matter. In as loaded mode, it will be placed and play where you drop it.

Would this not be an improvement over both what we had and what we have now, and be able to please almost everybody???
Using 5.1 LATEST alpha or beta build on Windows 10, HP laptop, managing 13k tracks
Barry4679
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Barry4679 »

You keep talking about a "NOW Playing" panel. I can't find a MM5 panel with that name. How do I access it?

I don't have much to say about Shuffle mode. I looked at the MM5 implementation, and I don't understand it. Maybe it is not working correctly, so I didn't waste any time with it.
It does seem that the MM5 Devs see Shuffle mode as being mutually exclusive to facilities allowing you to manually rearrange or view playlist sequence. I understand your point that it has killed of the OP's Use Case.

Proceeding to non-shuffle mode...
Rob_S wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 11:09 am When the principle of the now playing window is that it plays in display order, I do not understand the need for a save order button in the first place.
.... [snip]
I think they've got themselves tied in knots over this whole thing, which should be really simple. Whatever order the list is in is the order it plays.
It would be good if the manual explained the design intentions.


From what I can deduce, there is no "save" button when you drag and drop tracks. Those changes are "live" ... Probably because it is clear that you are re-arranging track sequence within the playlist.

On the other hand resequencing the playlist, via the column header, is not "live". The "Save" button in the Main panel, and the Save contextual menu item in the side panels, are enabled when you re-sort the display. .. Probably because you may not be wanting to re-order the play queue, you may just be reviewing the playlist while it is playing, and you are resequencing it so that you can find tracks or albums or artists etc. ... That seems a generally useful design, doesn't it? It would be greatly annoying if view activities screwed around with the currently playing queue.

On another topic, how stupid is it to implement a behavioural change without updating the documentation and without providing a Quick Start bulletin of some kind? ... I read through a few of the posts on this topic, and there seems to be general confusion, receiving just shambolic and complacent burnt out responses. It looks like you have wasted hours trying to get to grips with this issue.
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Rob_S
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Rob_S »

In a default installation under options, layout, the right panel contains the "Playing list" which has been most often referred to on the forum here as "Now playing", and the "Preview" at the bottom.

The main panel does not contain any predefined elements, and usually diplays whatever is selected in the media tree on the left. I believe most people work on their tracks and edit playlists using the main window, and listen to whatever is displayed in the "Playing list" on the right. Big feature missing here is the ability to remember a location in the playing list, so you can play something else, and return to the place you left off. Easy if the list always plays in displayed order.

It never made any sense to me that the tracks would play in anything other than the displayed order in the "Playing list". I only recently discovered the "Playing" node in the media tree, which mostly duplicates the function of the playing list with maybe more columns available, and this pardon me for saying stupid save order button.

If you want to save an order, save it to a playlist. Isn't that what playlists are for????
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Lowlander
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Lowlander »

If you sort the Playing list on 5.1 you'll need to save this sort order for it to take affect.
Rob_S
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Rob_S »

As of now the only way to do this is to open the "playing" node in the main window...

If I change the order there by drag and drop, there is no save order button, so this change is apparently saved automatically

Such changes made in playing node are not reflected in the "Playing list" window. So I can't switch back to that window after making a change.

Its a mess....
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Barry4679
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Barry4679 »

Rob_S wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:55 pm As of now the only way to do this is to open the "playing" node in the main window...
If I change the order there by drag and drop, there is no save order button, so this change is apparently saved automatically
From what I can see it is like this:
  • there is one "playing" display
  • it can be opened in a side panel
  • if you double click its heading, it also opens in the main window ... or it can be opened there from the Media Tree
  • in either you can drag and drop tracks to alter playing sequence .. these changes are "live", because your intent is clear
  • in the Main Panel, or in the side panel if you have changed its View from "Simple List" to "List", you can resequence the view by clicking on a column header
  • MiPi said that the intent of this action is unclear ... ie are you wanting to alter play sequence within the queue, or are you just reviewing queue contents using a temp sort sequence?
  • due to this the unclear intent, the view becomes just a resequenced read-only view of the Play Queue ... it is not a live view of the Play queue
  • you need to commit your change via the save button which is in the tool bar of the main window, or in the context menu in the side panels ==> the main panel now return to the live view of Playing Queue
Rob_S wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:55 pm Its a mess....
Maybe ... at the very least it is (overly?) complex ... and it is completely undocumented, that would make any change appear to be a mess.

In its defence I would be pissed off if I resorted the Play view just for review purpose, and that action screwed up the sequence of whatever I was listening to ... ie. I started hear repeat of tracks already played.

It doesn't help that it appears to have bugs:
  • it is unclear how you would reset main panel if you wanted to cancel the resequencing, and return to the live view
  • I have triggered multiple occasions where the Save button remains invisible when there is an uncommitted change
  • the Save 'button" in the side panel is "hidden" in the context menu. at the very least it should be in the hamburger menu
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Rob_S
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Rob_S »

you need to commit your change via the save button which is in the tool bar of the main window, or in the context menu in the side panels ==> the main panel now return to the live view of Playing Queue
Barry, where do you see a save order button in the context menu of the side panel?

So many parts of this illogical interface do not make sense.

Given that the playing list can be opened in the side panel "Playing List" and the main panel "playing" node, and that the sort order in the side panel does not update to reflect what happens in the main window, if you wish to view your playing tracks in some order other than what is actually playing, why not do so in the main window node?

The key point being missed here is that we requested and supposedly received a new feature where the playing list will play in the order in which it is displayed. Now they have messed it up again with all kinds of unneccessary complexities and confusions.

ps I just found the "save order" in the "Context menu" of the playing list. It only appears if I perform the column sort in the playing Node in the main window. It does not appear if I perform the column sort in the "Playing list" right panel itself!!!

Now that is clearly another bug....

In fact I see there is an old bug filed relating somewhat to this, but it appears to receive little attention

https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=20582
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Barry4679
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Barry4679 »

Rob_S wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 10:42 am ps I just found the "save order" in the "Context menu" of the playing list. It only appears if I perform the column sort in the playing Node in the main window. It does not appear if I perform the column sort in the "Playing list" right panel itself!!!

Now that is clearly another bug....
Yes, that is one of the bugs that I mentioned, ie. the Save button seems to inactive in situations where it seems to be required.
I think that I also managed to trigger that situation w/o involving the side panel.
Rob_S wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 10:42 am Given that the playing list can be opened in the side panel "Playing List" and the main panel "playing" node, and that the sort order in the side panel does not update to reflect what happens in the main window, if you wish to view your playing tracks in some order other than what is actually playing, why not do so in the main window node?

The key point being missed here is that we requested and supposedly received a new feature where the playing list will play in the order in which it is displayed. Now they have messed it up again with all kinds of unneccessary complexities and confusions.
I can't really comment on this.
I was absent from the forum while all this was going on, and I am not a user of any of these facilities anyway.

Am just trying to help clear up confusion in the absence of any explanation from Peke who seems to be designing this, but maybe I am adding to confusion?
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Rob_S
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Rob_S »

In case you want to read some background, it can be found here. You might see where this comes from.

https://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=104354
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Barry4679
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Re: sorting by song title issue

Post by Barry4679 »

Rob_S wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 8:20 pm In case you want to read some background, it can be found here. You might see where this comes from.
thanks ... I think :o
It looks like a rabbit hole of Alice in Wonderland proportions.
See here. A mountain of work has gone into this result that is causing you so much grief.
See the long relationship list where change after change (kludge?) has spiralled through MM4 to MM5.
I think that I will pass.

BTW, I see your fingerprints all over it, ie. top note from Ludek. :wink:
Want a dark skin for MM5? This is the one that works best for me .. elegant, compact & clear.
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