ScrobblerDJ v1.26, Let your music free!!!

Teknojnky · Post by **Teknojnky** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:56 pm

If you are comfortable with editing the script, you can change the max time out value in the auto\scobblerdjconfig.vbs file @ line 72:

Code: Select all

  edt.MaxValue = 25

Change the 25 to whatever max seconds you feel is good, tho I am not sure a super long time out would be good.

Perhaps the next version will have a connection 'retry' option in case the first connect times out.

paulmt · Post by **paulmt** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:04 pm

Ahhh thank you, I did look at the script but couldn't see the line referring to this, I will have another look.
I agree, too long a time would not be ideal. I have noticed that on my second attempt I invaribly always get a "connect" It's possible my broadband service may be partly to blame, or just volume of numbers accessing the Last.fm service?

Teknojnky · Post by **Teknojnky** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:38 pm

I just think that last.fm has been steadily increasing volume and their servers start to overload.

paulmt · Post by **paulmt** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:15 pm

Yep I agree. I have changed the time-out sec. to max. 35 and I have not had a time out since, so this appears to be a satisfactory quick fix, thank you.
BTW Tweak Monkey is great!

Teknojnky · Post by **Teknojnky** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:20 pm

Your welcome, and thanks!

MeMeMe · Post by **MeMeMe** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:20 pm

I've just installed this plugin, and I'm very impressed. Excellent.
I had the error reported by many people earlier which seems to have been solved by ensuring all the config settings are setup properly.

I'm looking forward to the next version - is it still coming?

I'd like to comment on the Feedback issue some people commented on earlier: the idea was floated that somehow ScrobblerDJ wouldn't report tracks played to LastFM if they were selected via this plug in.
If such a method is implemented, and it isn't possible to switch it off, I will have to stop using this plugin.
The people complaining about this issue are using faulty logic.
Here are ways people commonly build playlists to listen to music:
1 Just play everything in the library, in alphabetical order
2 Play everything in the library, on shuffle
3 Build a playlist - selecting either by album, artist, rating, or some other criteria, and then play alphabetically
4 Build a playlist - selecting either by album, artist, rating, or some other criteria, and then play randomly

Using scrobblerDJ has a lot in common with both options 2 and 4 above. You are picking songs that exist in your library, and you're allowing a semi-random process to determine which song is played next. When you look back over the last few hours of play, you have a list of songs that you could easily have built yourself (especially if you use the minimum rating feature of scrobblerDJ).

Also, I could (and do) build a playlist of songs from related artists and play them in random order - this will strengthen the relationships betwenet hem in lastfm. How is this very different from what scrobblerDJ does?

So, please, please, if you implement some sort of block-reports-to-lastfm feature, make it an option.

DaledeSilva · Post by **DaledeSilva** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:41 pm

That issue is one that's getting to alot of people I think.

MeMeMe,

2 and 4 are random, yes... but in that way they are dissimilar to Scrobbler DJ.
as someone said previously.. randomness being passed to last.fm helps create new paths and relationships.. yes... however, ScrobblerDJ's input "isn't" random.

example:

take five numbers:

2, 1, 2, 1, 1

now randomly pick one of them and add one to it.. and repeat this process over and over... all the numbers start increasing but probability laws indicate that they are all just as likely to increase or become the highest number.

so after 10 repeats we could have:

4, 5, 2, 2, 4

... however, take the same values, ( 2, 1, 2, 1, 1 ) and instead of randomly choose numbers within the set to increas.. base the number you choose on a recommendation of what is already one of the highest numbers. and add 1 to it.

that's 2 and 2

so after 10 repeats it would look something like this:

9, 1, 5, 1, 1

notice that none of the lower values every increase because they are never recommended. So the higher values simply get higher and higher simply 'because' they were high in the first place.

now, say being in the same album or the same genre causes them to constantly be increased, this is fine because them being in the same album or genre means they ARE related.. or if played in a fashion that they actually aren't related, then yes, that's random noise... but it is random, which means nothing will artificially become dominant.
The second example above is NOT random and it is NOT related. What the second example essentially is saying, is that something is related because it is related. That's a feedback loop.

I agree... I would REALLY like to be able to log my songs to last.fm using this plugin... really, this should be handled by last.fm so that if a recommendation is asked for and then played soon after by the same person.. they log it but don't use it to strengthen relationships.

however, that's not happening that I know of so it needs to be dealt with at this end.

If it were made an option, everyone would obviously turn it off... which means that the problem would not be solved at all.

HOWEVER... I don't think you need to be annoyed even if you disagree with what I am saying....The next version will have the ability to make a playlist of songs rather than having to only play live.... While it plays live it will disable last.fm logging... but it can't stop the last.fm plugin whenever you run a playlist you created with it... so you still have that option (and I suspect that option will be used far more than running it live by all anyway).

doesn't the playlist also cause the feedback loop? - well, yes, if you close your eyes and click play, then yes, it's doing the same thing... however, because it's a playlist.. it's likely that people will look at the songs and if there's anything they think doesn't really suit, they will take it out... so the issue is somewhat muted.

Dale.

Teknojnky · Post by **Teknojnky** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:19 am

I would expect that the new restriction options will help reduce the 'feedback' loop some are concerned about.

Specifically, having a long *TRACK* re-play timer, while having a much shorter album and artist re-play restrictions will go a long way to reducing the 'feedback' and potential repetiveness of songs that can happen.

I don't know what will be the new defaults, but I intend to set something like the following:

Track replay: > 5 days
Album replay: > 6 hours
Artist replay: > 2-3 hour

This should keep a minimum rotation of a few hours before I hear any repeat artist/albums, and nearly a week before I hear the same song.

None of which I feel is really a big deal when people play their favorite artists over and over and over to try to get to the top of the 'fans' list... see the top fans for coldplay/radiohead if you want specific examples.

These types of users are far more 'damaging' than any possible feedback loops that scrobblerdj would create.

DaledeSilva · Post by **DaledeSilva** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:53 am

Sounds well thought out, Teknojky.

I'm so curious to see the next version... playlists should be awesome!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:29 am

Yeah. Can't wait for playlists.
Would be cool to be able to select a song and create a playlist from scrobbler/last.fm. Then sync playlist to iPod and play back in my car on a my two hour drives home

Teknojnky · Post by **Teknojnky** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:34 am

You should try MusicIP Mixer if you want to create cool playlists now.

MeMeMe · Post by **MeMeMe** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:19 am

DaledeSilva wrote:That issue is one that's getting to alot of people I think.

MeMeMe,

2 and 4 are random, yes... but in that way they are dissimilar to Scrobbler DJ.
as someone said previously.. randomness being passed to last.fm helps create new paths and relationships.. yes... however, ScrobblerDJ's input "isn't" random.

example:

take five numbers:

The problem with this example is that it ignores user preference.
Those recommendations on LastFM exist for a reason - because, generally speaking, people who like one band often like another.
So, if I create a playlist manually, I might well create a playlist similar to the one that ScrobblerDJ picks - maybe not the same songs, but very likely the same artists.
A Darwinian selection process has already taken place before I start using ScrobblerDJ. Imagine I start with a band, I then go to LastFM, and try out its recommendations based on that band. Some of those bands I'll like - and they'll get added to my library. Some I won't like, and they won't get added to my library.
When ScribblerDJ starts up, it hears a song, then checks out the LastFM recommendations, and picks a new artist - but it only picks from those I've already decided I like.
Soo it is only strengthening those relationships I WANT it to strengthen - the artists and songs I've already determined that I like. (By placing them in my library, and rating at 2 stars or above.)

This relationship strengthening effect is a very weak effect, but its an effect I WANT.

I agree... I would REALLY like to be able to log my songs to last.fm using this plugin... really, this should be handled by last.fm so that if a recommendation is asked for and then played soon after by the same person.. they log it but don't use it to strengthen relationships.

Whereas I disagree - I want it to work as it does.

If it were made an option, everyone would obviously turn it off... which means that the problem would not be solved at all.

But we don't all agree that its a problem. Some of us think it's a feature!

HOWEVER... I don't think you need to be annoyed even if you disagree with what I am saying....The next version will have the ability to make a playlist of songs rather than having to only play live.... While it plays live it will disable last.fm logging... but it can't stop the last.fm plugin whenever you run a playlist you created with it... so you still have that option (and I suspect that option will be used far more than running it live by all anyway).

Which is a bizarre solution. What is the difference - from lastFM's point of view - between using it live, and using a playlist it created? No difference at all. All this solution does is make using scrobblerDJ a little less convenient for those who don't care about this issue (or like me are actively opposed to it).
Do we know for certain that this solution will be implemented? I hope not.

doesn't the playlist also cause the feedback loop? - well, yes, if you close your eyes and click play, then yes, it's doing the same thing... however, because it's a playlist.. it's likely that people will look at the songs and if there's anything they think doesn't really suit, they will take it out... so the issue is somewhat muted.

Dale.

People can do that already. If a song starts and you skip it before it's played half way through, it doesn't get logged by LastFM.

MeMeMe · Post by **MeMeMe** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:22 am

Teknojnky wrote: None of which I feel is really a big deal when people play their favorite artists over and over and over to try to get to the top of the 'fans' list... see the top fans for coldplay/radiohead if you want specific examples.

These types of users are far more 'damaging' than any possible feedback loops that scrobblerdj would create.

I play my favourite artists over and over, because I like them - not because of any desire to be rated as a fan.
By the way, I've heard of this fan list but I've never seen it - where do I find it?

Teknojnky · Post by **Teknojnky** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:38 am

There is a 'top fans' page for every artist/album/track.

Here is a good example:

http://www.last.fm/music/Radiohead/+fans

http://www.last.fm/music/Radiohead/OK+Computer/+fans

http://www.last.fm/music/Radiohead/_/Karma+Police/+fans

From the first radiohead 'top fan'

Overall Top Artists
1 Radiohead 27300
2 Thom Yorke 2884
3 Jonny Greenwood 1915
4 Led Zeppelin 354
5 The White Stripes 349

Now, I like some radiohead, but thats just insane.

MeMeMe · Post by **MeMeMe** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:50 pm

Thanks for those links - I'd never noticed that before.
Regarding that top radiohead fan, he does seem to have a bit of a Radiohead fixation. (If the average length of a track in his music collection is 4 minutes, he's been listening to about 8 hours of music a day since he joined - not excessive: I often do that. Though I vary the bands a tiny bit more.)
I notice a lot of people on his page call him a scrobbler cheater, then when I visit their pages, other people are calling them scrobbler-cheaters!

Fact is, different people listen to music differently. I once knew someone who would listen to his current favourite song for 8 hours a day, for about a week, then shift to his next favourite song. Drove me loopy.