[quote="rovingcowboy"]the best bet would be to use only the player skin.
but i don't know how you would use the player skin only when in the non skin mode?
the non skin mode was made by the developers whom put the code in for the winamp skin layout and told it to only use your windows theme only.

so just adding a skin to the player makes you need to use the skin mode right?
:-?[/quote]

In MM2 it is possible to show your player and have the rest of the window un-skinned.
In MM3 I think that putting it on un-skinned will also un-skin the player and you cant just use a skinned player, only the un-skinned one in the second screenshot shown by DryBones.
(Correct me if I'm wrong)

If you really wanted to bring back your MM2 look it would be a long process which I dont think would be worth it. Maybe it would be good to have a radio button or something in the skinning section of options to change between 2 and 3 compatibles.

[quote]But that would be a "cheat" of sorts. No ? Wouldn't it only cause MM3 to look like Windows and blend-in, but only superficially ?

For example ... if we change the Windows colors, or switch the main theme to Silver, (or OliveGreen), then the rest of Windows will be looking gray and MM3 would still be looking blue/tan and off sync. No ?[/quote]

Pretty much, but at the moment that looks like the only way to do it, I think.

[quote="DryBones"][quote="rovingcowboy"]winamp code for player skin using your xp theme colors only.[/quote]

Alright. So, even the unskinned version was using a skin of sorts. Didn't know that.

Does anyone know exctly which win-amp skin that was ? ... If I download it, will I be able to get Monkey3 to look *exactly* as it did before ?[/quote]


the best bet would be to use only the player skin.
but i don't know how you would use the player skin only when in the non skin mode?
the non skin mode was made by the developers whom put the code in for the winamp skin layout and told it to only use your windows theme only.

so just adding a skin to the player makes you need to use the skin mode right?
:-?

[quote="Blake"]If you did convert the skin and you wanted the main window to look like XP's Luna then you could use the Luna theme.mskn from [url=http://www.mediamonkey.com/skins.htm]here[/url].[/quote]

But that would be a "cheat" of sorts. No ? Wouldn't it only cause MM3 to look like Windows and blend-in, but only superficially ?

For example ... if we change the Windows colors, or switch the main theme to Silver, (or OliveGreen), then the rest of Windows will be looking gray and MM3 would still be looking blue/tan and off sync. No ?

You can modify MM2 skins so that they can work on MM3 using [url=http://www.mediamonkey.com/wiki/index.php/How_to_convert_MediaMonkey_v2.5_skins_in_to_v3.0_skins]this[/url] walkthrough.

What I was saying was that i thought that you could not have the player skinned but not the window in MM3 like you can in MM2. Which might mean that you have to make a theme for the main window that reflected your current windows theme.

If you did convert the skin and you wanted the main window to look like XP's Luna then you could use the Luna theme.mskn from [url=http://www.mediamonkey.com/skins.htm]here[/url].

In effect you are skinning, but only the player.
I also use the Windows theme for the same reasons you have stated, uniformity and consistency of layout, but I skin the player.
This is what I use, which is a modified WinAmp Classic skin. I am sure, that at this time anyway, these skins cannot be modified for use in MM3?? although there is a "short player" under development for MM3, in the Art forum

[img]http://www.paulmt.com/Image%20Storage/player.jpg[/img]

Here it is.... In a very, very old thread.

http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2764

You could modify it to make it compatible with MM3 but i don't think you can use it with the rest of MM unskinned.

[quote="rovingcowboy"]winamp code for player skin using your xp theme colors only.[/quote]

Alright. So, even the unskinned version was using a skin of sorts. Didn't know that.

Does anyone know exctly which win-amp skin that was ? ... If I download it, will I be able to get Monkey3 to look *exactly* as it did before ?

image one.

winamp code for player skin using your xp theme colors only.

image two.
new none skinned player using your xp theme colors only.

new player in skin is defaulted to 60 pixels high.
thus the thin new player is posted at the top of the area for the player. the player area is not adjusting to the height of the thin player this is the same with the skinned versions.

left click the player and drag it to a dock area above the list view.
it should be made the thin size, or move the other two items art, and now playing to different dock areas.
minimize monkey and restore it. or close and restart it.
that should make the player the normal size.
that is what i have to do with the skinned version.

its not that they changed the non skinned mode because they wanted to, it's that they had to when they wanted to change to a new system for the skinned versions. all the non skin version seems to be is a normal skinned version but told not to use the skin files and only use the windows theme of the users computer.
so you get everything but the skin options.

[quote="rovingcowboy"]and that is just how i took it and how i answered you.[/quote]

ok, then :), but I am not sure how. Did you mean that the code from the unskinned version had to be scrapped, or simplified, before the skinned version could become more advanced ? As in, there was no way to keep the old behavior (and look) of the little dockable player ?
[quote]but the non skinned error you showed is the one i been getting with the skinned version. so something is up, with both versions.?[/quote]
Well, it is not solely about the dock-ability, or the overall height, of the player widget. It is the look of the whole player altogether :-)

So basically going back to the original images:
This player (bellow) was nice and cozy, and had all necessary information in a nicely presented layout, and it had a titlebar that we could grab to undock, and it had a little cute close button too.
[img]http://aycu35.webshots.com/image/35314/2001540279094661350_rs.jpg[/img]

So, the above nice little player .... became simplified.
-Lost the title bar,
-Lost realtime volume bars,
-Lost the large and bold time display,
-Lost the kbps and Khz display,
-Lost the left/right speaker bias slider,
-Lost the cute little monkey icon :)
-Lost its height. Now it is so short that nothing can be usefully docked next to it.
... and now it looks like this:
[img]http://aycu28.webshots.com/image/35387/2001599969093745163_rs.jpg[/img]

It looks unfinished to me :-)

[quote="DryBones"]We got a little off-track, though, discussing the boons and banes of skinning. Now to get back on track ... the main point of the original post was that the original unskinned version was a little more useful (with more information) than the newer unskinned version. So, the comparison is meant between old unskinned and new unskinned. (When I asked the question "Why was it changed", It was not meant as an attack on skinning, but simply thinking out loud why the unskinned version took a step backwards).[/quote]

and that is just how i took it and how i answered you.
no jab's thrown from me. i get hurt when any i throw come back at me. :P

but the non skinned error you showed is the one i been getting with the skinned version. so something is up, with both versions.?

i only get that error when i switch from a skin with more height, then the one i am going too.. but if i switch from a skin with the default height to one of more height then the new skin's player also gives me that same error you show.
which makes it strange.? but this error only happens on my main player skins..

i never use the non skin mode. so i don't know what the older version did.?

We got a little off-track, though, discussing the boons and banes of skinning. Now to get back on track ... the main point of the original post was that the original unskinned version was a little more useful (with more information) than the newer unskinned version. So, the comparison is meant between old unskinned and new unskinned. (When I asked the question "Why was it changed", It was not meant as an attack on skinning, but simply thinking out loud why the unskinned version took a step backwards).

[quote]I'm not sure what the "Windows norm" is, considering that Windows itself can be customized/skinned[/quote]
The thing is that part of ergonomics is "uniformity", that is, all elements of the interface should look the same everywhere. Applications should not deviate too much either in colors or behaviors within one system. So, when developing, it is best to try and use standard MS controls, such as listviews, flexgrids, treeviews, close buttons, etc ... and try to emulate the microsoft interface functionality. For example, MsWord or Excel, have docking customizable toolbars (and so on and so forth), so it is good to follow the MS lead and carry those features over while developing on a windows platform.

In this case the player itself in the original screenshot may have some unique graphic elements for displaying the track volume, start, stop, suffle buttons etc, but at least it borrows the main windows colors, it is easily dockable, it has a titlebar with a standard close button on the upper right corner, and it seems to be using standard windows sliders, text boxes, or image boxes.

Also, it does not matter if the Windows interface can be skinned itself, as long as the theme is applied anywhere and everywhere transparently. If we change the theme to blue, then all applications should look blue. If the menu background color is beige, then all menu background colors in all applications should be beige. In short, anything you do in the desktop-->properties-->Appearance should propagate to every corner of the Windows environment to create uniformity.

Now, when you skin an application, then it deviates from the ideal of uniformity (against the Windows environment) and some people (many people actually) do not like the idea, while others think it is fun ad hip. So, when you skin MediaMonkey it no longer listens to the global appearance settings from Windows, which is technically not quite kosher. Again, some people have a taste for skinning, which is fine and many developers offer skinned apps these days. On the other hand if we were to allow every application with its own unique, yet different skins, then the PC starts looking like a circus in a way. (which is fine if that is what you want really. I mean we all like to be unique in a way. It is cool), but it should be done as long as we do not neglect the standard practice too (the ability of having the application get its colors from the main Windows theme).
[quote]Windows itself can be customized/skinned, and that many elements of that customization would have no effect on the appearance of Mediamonkey[/quote]
Exactly.
Such rigidity, is non standard. It is cool to have, but it is still not standard practice. An application should always listen to (or have an option to make it able to listen to) the Windows main theme; whichever that theme might be at the moment.
[quote]This is also not to mention the fact that the included unskinned version of Mediamonkey bears little semblance to Windows Vista or XP[/quote]
It is windows XP. The screen shot is using the colors of the current XP theme on this system ... and that color theme is consistent throughout. All applications on this PC look and feel the same (since I tend to avoid the ones that come pre-skinned and rigid; or with no way to remove their custom skinning) This is one reason I chose MediaMonkey in the first place, over other players like Win-Amp, etc.

Unskinned, may be boring, ... but it has its merits; at least for some :wink:

I'm sorry that you took offense to my post, but I took exception to you saying that skinning is not a good practice, and I have a problem with what you say about "ergonomics" on many levels. I'm not sure what the "Windows norm" is, considering that Windows itself can be customized/skinned, and that many elements of that customization would have no effect on the appearance of Mediamonkey. This is also not to mention the fact that the included unskinned version of Mediamonkey bears little semblance to Windows Vista or XP and could be skinned to have much more of a 'Windows look and feel.'

I do apologize as I know this is off topic and I hope that you don't take offense to anything being said. Think of it as friendly debate :wink:

[quote="nohitter151"]Not good practice? I am not too sure what this exactly means, but if you are for being subjective, perhaps you should evaluate your own statements more carefully.[/quote]

It does not really matter to me if you skin it or not, neither do I care to make people change their ways.

However, the statements were careful and correct. It is standard ergonomics theory. Windows sets a theme and method (placement of buttons, consistency of look and feel, conventions of populating the menus, etc). It does not matter if the windows conventions are good or bad (they are conventions nonetheless). On the hand the practice of skinning (talking in general) is like a rebellion, often going against the Windows look and feel.

Essentially, it is skinning that "deviates" from the Windows norm. As such, I should not even have to defend the unskinned version. I am actually surprised I am treated as a minority, or as if I am an alien of some sort.

Again, it doesn't matter to me if there is skinning or not, as long as the standard unskinned version does not suffer.

[quote="DryBones"]Well, that is subjective. no ?

...

Skins, might look cool, but it is not good practice, from ergonomics standpoint. [/quote]

Not good practice? I am not too sure what this exactly means, but if you are for being subjective, perhaps you should evaluate your own statements more carefully.