MMA playing from a UPnP source [#10893]

[Barry4679]

Observations when playing from a UPnP source (version 128, with MMW 1638):

1> Less convenient to play whole albums via UPnP, than it is to play albums stored locally on the device: There is no long press functionality on the screen listing an artist's albums (ie. no access to the Add to Queue, or Play Now buttons which are available when playing from local files) ... Also there is no long press available on the Album heading which shows the track listing if you drill into a specific album.

2> The (useless) Play (because it is) Random button on the album title line when browsing within an album is intermittent. On a 7" tablet in portrait mode there is no button when I first enter into UPnP browsing. I need to switch over to landscape for the button to display... after I have done that it overlays the end of the album title even when returning to portrait mode, but never arrives if I do not toggle portrait->landscape->portrait .... (also please consider making this a standard play_in_track_sequence button, or have a config option to set whether the button is standard Play or a Play Random button .... who plays their album in random sequence?)

3> "Search facility" is confusing: If I am browsing inside the UPnP part of MMA. The heading line shows an icon indicating that I am inside a UPnP server, and shows the index name. What is the Search icon doing on that heading line? The implication is that there is some search within UPnP facility, but the button just gives a local search which is non-intuitive IMO.

4> If I long press the Now Playing screen during UPnP playback, it appears that I can set a track rating. Does this work? If I go to the track properties screen from Now Playing it appears that I can't set the track rating, which seems inconsistent.

Playing from a UPnP source other than MMW ... (using ReadyUPnP which runs on a Netgear ReadyNas device
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1> There is no scrobbling. I have scrobbling set up. I have set the options set to use Simple Last.fm correctly, as I get scrobbling ok when playing music stored locally on the device (ie. no UPnP). I get scrobbling when MMW is the source, but non when playing via UPnP from a source other than MMW.

2> Album tracks are not displayed in track number sequence. They are displayed in track title sequence. (using ReadyUPnP which runs on a Netgear ReadyNas device). Album tracks appear in the expected sequence when browsing the same UPnP server via BubbleUPnp.

[Lowlander]

1) This is probably because it is not know what contents a folder has prior to opening the folder.

2) This is really useful and play in order (bottom) is available once you select files. http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=10880

3) To be implemented: http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=10420

4) No, UPnp doesn't allow of editing files: http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=10887

5) Scrobbling is not implemented for UPnP servers. Probably because there is no good way yet to prevent double scrobbling (both MMW and MMA scrobbling the same UPnP track).

6) http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=10888

[Barry4679]

Thanks for your response.

1> Less convenient to play whole albums via UPnP, than it is to play albums stored locally on the device: There is no long press functionality on the screen listing an artist's albums (ie. no access to the Add to Queue, or Play Now buttons which are available when playing from local files) ... Also there is no long press available on the Album heading which shows the track listing if you drill into a specific album.

1) This is probably because it is not know what contents a folder has prior to opening the folder.

I don't understand.

I have selected an album either from the displayed list of albums, or by interacting with the album header when its track list is displayed.

What else would you require in order to be able to add the tracks from the selected album, in track number order, onto the Now Playing queue?

What has folders got to do with it? The album is the container.

please consider making this a standard play_in_track_sequence button, or have a config option to set whether the button is standard Play or a Play Random button .... who plays their album in random sequence?

This is really useful and play in order (bottom) is available once you select files. http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=10880

Don't you think that it sucks that in order to play an album in its intended sequence one is required to:
1> long press on one of the tracks ... (take care, if you stumble the long press the single track will start playing, interrupting whatever is currently playing)
2> press the select all control which is now enabled
3> press the Add to Queue button, which wasn't visible before

Why require three interactions just to achieve what is after all the primary function of the player and the album?

I can understand that random play may be useful with playlists, but do people really queue their albums in random track order? I don't. I think that the decision is bizarre.

5) Scrobbling is not implemented for UPnP servers. Probably because there is no good way yet to prevent double scrobbling (both MMW and MMA scrobbling the same UPnP track).

5) Scrobbling is not implemented for UPnP servers. Probably because there is no good way yet to prevent double scrobbling (both MMW and MMA scrobbling the same UPnP track).

Scrobbling is implemented for the MMW UPnP server, but not for other UPnP servers.

I doubt that the reason is due to the potential for MMA & MMW to duplicate the scrobble.

MMA is ok palming the scrobble over to Simple Simple Last.fm et al, when I am playing a track local to the device. It doesn't worry about what MMW will do in that instance.

Besides, if MMW was running I wouldn't be using another UPnP server.... I use the other server at night, when the PC is powered off. I can play using MMA, my NAS' UPnP server, and some blue tooth head phones. But I want the tracks to be scrobbled. I obtain the LFM play counts, collected from across all my music platforms, to overwrite the MMW version of play history, so that MMW can identify music that I have been neglecting. Listening without scrobbling is not an option for me.

maybe I am missing something. Is MMA supposed to cache, and synch the plays back to MMW, so that it can then scrobble them? That wouldn't seem such a good idea to me, what if I played a track that wasn't in the MMW database?

It would be really good if MMA enabled scrobbling, using the existing android scrooblers, when using UPnP servers other than MMW. Just as it does for tracks local to the android device. If not people will need to use a different android player for these plays if scrobbling is important to them.

[Lowlander]

1) Container, folder same thing, different name. Until a client opens a container it doesn't know what it contains. It is just a container and it's up to the server if it has files or more containers. Until a client opens the container it won't know what's in it (it can't look into each container listed prior to opening as a user may have thousands of containers listed).

2) As play in order can be used for any number of selected files it depends on the selection. I have no problem with the extra step.

5) Double scrobbling is a problem. If you use MMW for UPnP playback server it will scrobble as you play. MMW has no capability to disable scrobbling from certain clients (and importantly also without disabling play counting) and MMA has no capability to disable scrobbling from certain servers. Until either (best would be both) are able to do so it is logical that UPnP scrobbling is disabled on MMA.

[Barry4679]

1) Container, folder same thing, different name. Until a client opens a container it doesn't know what it contains. It is just a container and it's up to the server if it has files or more containers. Until a client opens the container it won't know what's in it (it can't look into each container listed prior to opening as a user may have thousands of containers listed).

I think that we must be speaking a cross purposes. It doesn't need to pre-open anything. It would just be good if it had a simple method to play from whatever container that I have selected from those currently on view. If I pressed Play, it should just queue the contents. My error if there are voluminous contents. I should be able to queue up a whole artist, or genre, if I wanted to.

Besides, why wouldn't it know when it was displaying an album container, rather than just a directory? Looking at MMA accessing MMW; it seems to be aware that when it is listing an album, as it displays the cover art. eg:
* entries in the Album index ... what else would they be other than albums
* AlbumArtist after I have drilled into an Artist entry ... same thing
* etc

2) As play in order can be used for any number of selected files it depends on the selection. I have no problem with the extra step.

OK, but I still disagree.

Is step(s), ie plural.

Means that MM is designed as track-centric, rather than album-centric., which is a bit disappointing for someone album-centric such as myself.

I will shut up about this now, as I have made my point.

5) Double scrobbling is a problem.

Double scrobbling isn't a problem for me, not-scrobbling is a problem.

I have MMW scrobbling turned off, as I never play via MMW. All my home playing is via Sonos equipment (which scrobbles), or via a UPnP client (which needs to scrobble).

MM just maintains my tags, and is my browser of choice. It gets play counts from LFM, as that is the only place which has the aggregation of all my plays across all platforms, including those outside the home.

In this scenario if MMA doesn't scrobble UPnP plays, it won't be used.

[Lowlander]

1) A server only sends containers. Thus you could be trying to play an empty container, a container containing more containers or a container containing files. I'm not aware that anything more than a container is send, by which I mean the server doesn't indicate this is a container of an Album, this is a container of an Artist. Different servers will provide different browsing structures. MMW will even have different structures based on amount of content (user setting).

5) It may not be for you, but for many it will be (strange it isn't as you depend on last.fm play stats, which will be incorrect when double scrobbling). So until it is it shouldn't be enabled for UPnP in MMA.

[khelsing]

1) Container, folder same thing, different name. Until a client opens a container it doesn't know what it contains. It is just a container and it's up to the server if it has files or more containers. Until a client opens the container it won't know what's in it (it can't look into each container listed prior to opening as a user may have thousands of containers listed).

Whilst this might be true if you use MMA with MMW as the server, it isn't true if you use other servers. When using WMP or Twonky as a server MMA and other UPnP clients know very well if something is a container or an album before having opened it (containers have a folder symbol whereas albums show the album art). To me this clearly looks as if both MMW's UPnP server component and MMA's UPnP client component are buggy.

2Player for example allows you to long press an album entry and then play the album, add it to the playlist or download it to the device. This clearly shows that what Barry4679 is asking for is feasible.

[Lowlander]

The Art is added by the server to the container, it can be shown in other than Album containers.

[khelsing]

The Art is added by the server to the container

But the server doesn't necessarily add it automatically, the client should request the art (please see http://upnp.org/specs/av/UPnP-av-Conten ... f#page=130).

Furthermore the UPnP standard provides the class "object.container.album.musicAlbum" which tells the client that a specific object is a music album (please see http://upnp.org/specs/av/UPnP-av-Conten ... f#page=128). Of course there also are classes for other media types. If an object is of the class "object.container.storageFolder" the client knows (or at least should know) that it's a folder.

Several UPnP clients obviously are capable of handling these classes correctly whereas MMA isn't yet (but of course MMA still is a beta version).

[Lowlander]

It obviously would be useful if MMA could do this, it may also involve modifications in MMW to get it fully working: http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=10893 It may be an oversight as it has been implemented for Playlists.

[Barry4679]

Intersting document links khelsing. Thanks.

It obviously would be useful if MMA could do this, it may also involve modifications in MMW to get it fully working: http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=10893 It may be an oversight as it has been implemented for Playlists.

Great, thanks for raising the ticket.

Double scrobbling isn't a problem for me, not-scrobbling is a problem.

5) It may not be for you, but for many it will be (strange it isn't as you depend on last.fm play stats, which will be incorrect when double scrobbling). So until it is it shouldn't be enabled for UPnP in MMA.

I didn't express that too well. I meant that double scrobbling isn't a problem for me, as it couldn't happen (for me).

Only players should scrobble, and as I don't ever use MMW as a player I have scrobble submission disabled there.

I am a long time user and big fan of MediaMonkey, but don't use it as a player on the PC.

I use it to manage, tag, organise & browse a large music collection.

Since this beta I also use it as a DLNA server, and to synch music to my android device. I was also hoping to use it as an android player.

If you are correct in your assumption that MMA's other_server UPnP scrobbling has been disabled due to the danger of double scrobbling, it would mean that the designers have a fairly limiting view of how MM could|should be used IMO.

It makes perfect sense to me to make use of MM w/o using it as a PC player.

I like the way the android player is developing, but if it doesn't scrobble, it is a non-starter for me.

Disabling UPnP scrobbling, because they assume I must be also using MMW as a player, would make as little sense to me as it would if they also restricted me from loading tracks into the MM database which hadn't been ripped by MM itself.

Besides double scrobbling is already possible with MMA. If you set the MMA scrobbling option to use the Simple Last.fm scrobbler, and the offical LFM app has its SLS Support option checked, you get doubled scrobbles. Wouldn't your logic imply that they should also nobble the scrobbling of local plays as a nanny protection to avoid the possibility of a duplicated scrobble?

[Lowlander]

Only players should scrobble

Many UPnP clients lack this capability so it is essential that the server can (and currently does) scrobble UPnP playback to clients.

As for the rest I assume you're not reading what I said. As long as there is no way in either or both MMA or MMW to define which for which client/server scrobbling is enabled it's better it doesn't scrobble. The fact you don't use MMW doesn't mean others don't either. Many will use MMA with MMW and don't want double scrobbling. As it stands now neither MMW nor MMA can prevent this (without other problems) and until either or both can UPnP scrobbling should remain disabled in MMA. I look forward to the day that both MMW and MMA can turn scrobbling on/off per client/server at which point MMA should have UPnP scrobbling.

[Barry4679]

Only players should scrobble

Many UPnP clients lack this capability so it is essential that the server can (and currently does) scrobble UPnP playback to clients.

As for the rest I assume you're not reading what I said.

I guess that you mean *for the* clients.

I read all your replies carefully. Even do a half decent job of filling in the gaps.

The fact you don't use MMW doesn't mean others don't either. Many will use MMA with MMW and don't want double scrobbling.

They have an option to achieve that; just uncheck the scrobbler options in MMA.

I look forward to the day that both MMW and MMA can turn scrobbling on/off per client/server at which point MMA should have UPnP scrobbling.

+1

[Lowlander]

They have an option to achieve that; just uncheck the scrobbler options in MMA.

Which stops scrobbling local playbacks as well.

[rusty]

Note: item 2- bug 10880 and item 4 - bug 10887 are fixed in build 131+ (to be posted soon).

-Rusty