Multiple Artists, ';' separator, etc. - discussion

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chrisjj
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Post by chrisjj »

spacefish wrote:So basically you're saying that this method will work for everyone but only folks who want multiple artists parsed in a logical and friendly manner (i.e. Queen & David Bowie, not Queen/David Bowie), will need to adapt. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm deliberately not saying that because I think it unsound to rely on subjective measures of 'logical' and 'friendly'. I'm saying it will work for everyone but only folks who want non-/standard/ interpretation need adapt.
Is it worth the extra work (because there will be a lot more with your method than there is currently)
As ever, each user must decide whether the work is worth it. The solution means more user work than currently only because the requirements include more data.

I've seen no method that better minimises that work. Though of your proposed multi-field input method you say "nothing new would open" I don't see how that is possible. I think users want a solution that works within the existing workflow inc. direct keying into the track list, assisted by the drop-down and copy'n'paste, and would not appreciate having to use multiple fields presented either as list columns or Properties dialog controls.
to update exception tables and separator options manually? I don't think it is. I believe the program should do as much of the work as possible.
As much as possible - but no more. MM cannot mindread so the user is going to have to specify separators for MM to interpret existing custom-separated data.
Yes, some values for separators will need to be entered initially by the user but designed into the work flow of adding/editing properties, rather than a separate options table
Fine - have a Mark as Separator command/key - but let's not mistake that as an alternative to an Options table.
Multi-field method: I don't have that multi-artist separator defined? Add + here next to the artist (tandem to the artist field in the properties window;
Sorry, forcing multi-artist-entering users into a Properties dialog is not acceptable IMO.
Since this method only assigns one artist per artist field, I don't have to worry about the + in the next band's name. MM knows it's only one artist because it's in an artist field.
Um, MM knows only because your proposal forces the user into explicitly telling it. I for one do not have the time to fiddle about slice and dicing one string into multiple input controls on every track.
Your method: I don't have that multi-artist separator defined? Cancel out of properties
No - use key/button to add the current separator.
Next time I have an artist with + in their name though, I have to decide whether or not to add them to the exception table too
No decision required - you just hit the key/command to add it. That's a rare case and far less work than your slice and dice every time.
Lot more steps in your method
I think not. In my proposal, once you've chosen your separators and set special artist names, MM will automatically show your whole library multi-artisted. If I understand your proposal correctly, the user must slice and dice on every track individually.
OOPS I selected too many letters now how do I fix it?
In the exceptions Options, ideally modeless.
Chris
spacefish
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Post by spacefish »

Well, my thoughts are out there. We need a method to input multiple artists and have them parsed (displayed, reported, read, etc.) in a meaningful way derived from the input method we're given. To me, a multi-field interface seems natural for this: enter one artist per field -- there's never a question about how many artists are present; no upkeep required -- MM parses them on the back end and translates them internally for standards compliant storage.

I'm sure whatever the devs come up with will be at least as good as it is now.
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ZvezdanD
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Post by ZvezdanD »

In my opinion it is wrong to think about GUI in relation with tags, especially not with MP3 tags - ID3 tags sucks, as well as MP3 format. There are much better audio formats with better tagging "standards" already supported by MM. If I exclusively use some of this audio formats, why I need to be limited with ID3 limitations during editing of data? As I said before, those are two different things.

The job of MM developers is to make editing of musical properties as much comfortable to the users as it is possible and to make writing of this properties into tags as much transparent/compatible with other software/hardware players as possible. For many users entering of any kind of separator is not obvious neither user-friendly. Many beginners/non-literate computer users don't know anything about "/" nor ";", but when they look on the multi-row artist table, they intuitively will know how to enter multi-item data. Every CATraxx user will tell you that. But, as someone said before, maybe the best is to enable both way to enter data - the single-line edit field and the table.

Jiri already explained that there must be entered two tags for each multi-artist tracks - the one with displayed form and another with corresponding artists. Here are some examples. How about artist "Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young"? I wish to see their albums under node "Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young", but also under nodes for each of them: "David Crosby", "Stephen Stills", "Graham Nash" and "Neil Young". However, I don't want to see their songs which they are recorded together under name "David Crosby/Stephen Stills/Graham Nash/Neil Young", nor "David Crosby;Stephen Stills;Graham Nash;Neil Young". Even "David Crosby, Stephen Stills, Graham Nash and Neil Young" is unacceptable - if you take a look on All Music Guide, or some another musical encyclopedia, you couldn't find them under such name, but only as "Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young". There are more artist's names like that: "Beck, Bogert & Appice", "Emerson, Lake & Palmer", "Ike & Tina Turner", "Page & Plant", "West, Bruce & Laing",...

And how about artists with several names: "Big Audio Dynamite/Big Audio Dynamite II/Big Audio", "Clan of Xymox/Xymox", "Dexy's Midnight Runners/Dexys Midnight Runners", "Grand Funk Railroad/Grand Funk", "Jefferson Airplane/Starship", "The Sisters of Mercy/The Sisterhood", "The Small Faces/The Faces", "The Specials/Special A.K.A.", "Tyrannosaurus Rex/T. Rex",... I don't want to see all of this variations in the Artist node of the tree window, just single name. But I need to know which name the artist was used for some album. Also, I don't want to use some Custom field for such thing, but some standard named field, like "Alternate Names" as it is in CATraxx.
chrisjj
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Post by chrisjj »

ZvezdanD wrote:If I exclusively use some of this audio formats, why I need to be limited with ID3 limitations during editing of data?
Because ID3 support is essential to MMs cross-format functionality. And the only constraint of ID3 limitations I've seen here is '/' being reserved.
Many beginners/non-literate computer users don't know anything about "/" nor ";", but when they look on the multi-row artist table, they intuitively will know how to enter multi-item data.
They sure know about ',' and '&' so would think it bonkers there to have to manually fill multi-item inputs.
Every CATraxx user will tell you that
Does MM want a userbase as small as CATraxx's? ;)
Jiri already explained that there must be entered two tags for each multi-artist tracks - the one with displayed form and another with corresponding artists.
I do not beleive Jiri said that.
I wish to see their albums under node "Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young", but also under nodes for each of them: "David Crosby", "Stephen Stills", "Graham Nash" and "Neil Young".
Best start a separate topic for Alternate Names - this one for "Multiple Artists, ';' separator, etc." is complex enough! ;)
Chris
MoDementia
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Post by MoDementia »

";"
Last edited by MoDementia on Fri May 16, 2008 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ZvezdanD
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Post by ZvezdanD »

chrisjj wrote:
Many beginners/non-literate computer users don't know anything about "/" nor ";", but when they look on the multi-row artist table, they intuitively will know how to enter multi-item data.
They sure know about ',' and '&' so would think it bonkers there to have to manually fill multi-item inputs.
I don't know what is a connection of your answer with my quote. Of course that users know about "," and "&" but we are talking here about "/" and ";", right? I don't know English very well to understand your sentences. Please could you be more clear with your observations?
chrisjj wrote:
Jiri already explained that there must be entered two tags for each multi-artist tracks - the one with displayed form and another with corresponding artists.
I do not beleive Jiri said that.
Take a look:
http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... 393#142393
5. I'd say that each track could be tagged as having just a single artist (see the string in 1.), so that Artist string looks good in other applications/devices/etc., further details about multliple artists the track belongs to would be stored in special fields - so far not defined by any standard.
http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... 604#142604
5. I also got an idea for improvement here: Instead of tagging to some special fields, 'Involved people' field could be used for this purpose. I.e. for the example above, it would be like:
Artist: Artist1 & Artist2 feat. Artist3
Involved people: Artist1 (as Artist), Artist2 (as Artist), Artist3 (as Artist), Artist4 (as Artist).
http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... 870#142870
And it would be in tag:

Artist (TPE1): Artist1 & Artist2 feat. Artist3
Inv.People(TIPL or other): Person1/Guitar/Person2/Bass/Artist1/Artist/Artist2/Artist/Artist3/Artist
chrisjj wrote:
I wish to see their albums under node "Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young", but also under nodes for each of them: "David Crosby", "Stephen Stills", "Graham Nash" and "Neil Young".
Best start a separate topic for Alternate Names - this one for "Multiple Artists, ';' separator, etc." is complex enough! ;)
In my opinion "Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young" is multi-artist, not alternate name. But anyway, both of this issues share same problem: the needs to some track has written two tags - one for display purpose and second for parsing data to artist(s).
Teknojnky
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Post by Teknojnky »

ZvezdanD wrote:In my opinion "Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young" is multi-artist, not alternate name. But anyway, both of this issues share same problem: the needs to some track has written two tags - one for display purpose and second for parsing data to artist(s).
Well, I have to disagree here.

Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young is a group. The group of course is made up of the individual artists.

Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, is NOT the same group as Crosby, Stills & Nash, and none of them are individual artists while performing in the band context.

I am afraid that several of you want to mangle group and artist names together to 'ease' navigation and organization, when in reality most/many of the suggestions are bastardization of the actual artist/group name just to fit some personal preferences.

I absolutely do not want my artist tree to show each of the 4 artists individually, except in specific cases where they performed as an individual (for example Neil Young).

The fact is, that we humans can make the cognative leaps to logically group together Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young with Crosby, Stills & Nash.

But databases do not have that intelligence, and tag format compatility (especially considering multiple formats) is simply another layer of complexity.

My needs are simple.

A user-defined UI separator, user-defined exceptions, and supporting of the various standard fields defined to indicate accompanied or secondary artists.

All this talk about creating relationships between a person's name and the artist name and the artist within a group is all great, but as already previously mentioned, is a different battle: Creating advanced relationships.

If anyone is at all familar with MusicBrainz, you are already aware of the concept of advanced relationships, but if not I suggest you take a look at it. It is not really a trivial thing to implement, at least in a simple and easy to use manner.
chrisjj
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Post by chrisjj »

Mo, I think it is a great idea to make a soonish minimum fix.
MoDementia wrote:2 checkboxes to enable space before and or space after
Simpler: just include the space in the separator e.g. "; ".
Of course there needs to be the routine to convert all the artists etc when the separator is changed.
What for?? In both WMA and compliant MP3, there's no changable storage separator.
Chris
chrisjj
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Post by chrisjj »

ZvezdanD wrote:
chrisjj wrote:
Jiri already explained that there must be entered two tags for each multi-artist tracks - the one with displayed form and another with corresponding artists.
I do not beleive Jiri said that.
Take a look:
"could be" is way different from "must be".
ZvezdanD wrote:In my opinion "Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young" is multi-artist, not alternate name.
Agreed, but that's not what I referred to as multi-name. What I reffered to as multi-name was:
... but also under nodes for each of them: "David Crosby"...
Chris
MoDementia
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Post by MoDementia »

";"
Last edited by MoDementia on Fri May 16, 2008 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MoDementia
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Post by MoDementia »

";"
Last edited by MoDementia on Fri May 16, 2008 5:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
chrisjj
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Post by chrisjj »

MoDementia wrote:The UI separator is stored in the database as entered for single line editing/display.
Better not to store the separator in the database but instead to detect it at input time and apply it at display time, obviating database conversion.
MoDementia wrote:
chrisjj wrote:Simpler: just include the space in the separator e.g. "; ".
As the combined artist string is stored in the database extra spaces are stored and a simple change to spacing will require a full database update. Using checkboxes the spacing can be applied at the time of display.
That's no reason to complicate the Options UI - MM can work out what part of "; " is a space. However this problem goes away if as suggested above, the user's separator is not stored in the DB at all.
Last edited by chrisjj on Thu May 08, 2008 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chris
chrisjj
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Post by chrisjj »

MoDementia wrote:pop up the multi-artists table or to have it pop up automatically when the field is in edit mode i.e. field clicked on to...
There are 2 advantages to this approach that I think have been overlooked/dismissed. And no disadvantages
Looks fair, but disadvantages:
1) Does not allow single-line input containing new exceptions/separators
2) Partly obscures the track list with the table. [EDIT: deletion]
MoDementia wrote:In a single-line input consider the following
Robert Pal --> autocomplete --> Robert Palmer
<end>[MASA];Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young[MASA]
In a Multi-artists table input
Robert Pal ---> autocomplete ---> Robert Palmer
<tab><tab>Crosb --> autocomplete ---> Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young

There is no speed advantage between the 2
Untrue. The MASA hotkey press is needed only for excepted artists and only the first time for each. The table tab presses are needed for every artist, every time.
MoDementia wrote:In the single-line input there is also the increased risk of typos in subsequent artists without the aid of autocomplete.
Not if single-line input has single-artist autocomplete, as it should.
MoDementia wrote:There is no reason it <tab> couldn't work in the single-line edit as [MASA] also.
There is - that would prang the current use of tab for column stepping.
MoDementia wrote:There is no instance where this proposal impacts the use of cut/paste
Meaning the proposed scheme also accepts single-line input and displays it unchanged? And Add/Rescan likewise?
MoDementia wrote:If your default separator is "|" for example then any <tab> designation would be non-existent.
What "<tab> designation", please?
Chris
ZvezdanD
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Post by ZvezdanD »

Teknojnky wrote:Well, I have to disagree here.

Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young is a group. The group of course is made up of the individual artists.
Well, I think that my wish to see all albums where some artist are playing is not "bastardization". OK, maybe "Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young" is not a good example, but I think it is much better than "Iron Maiden" and "Bruce Dickinson". I am just wondering where you draw a line between a group and a multi-artist. Is your criteria for that a number of involved artists? How about "Ike & Tina Turner"? Is this a group or multi-artist? Should I enter "Ike Turner/Tina Turner" or "Ike Turner;Tina Turner" if I want to see their albums under "Tina Turner" node? How about one-man projects like "Adiemus" by Karl Jenkins, "Red Noise" by Bill Nelson or "Thinkman" by Ruper Hine? How about variations with personal names like "The Wailers" (first two albums) and "Bob Marley & The Wailers" (rest of them), or even some albums under a name "Bob Marley"? Should I see all those albums under 3 nodes or 1 node?

There are many such examples: "The Animals/Eric Burdon & The Animals/Eric Burdon & The New Animals", "Béla Fleck/Bela Fleck & The Flecktones", "Eric Burdon/The War/Eric Burdon & War", "Edgar Winter/Edgar Winter & White Trash", "George Clinton/George Clinton & the P-Funk All Stars" (not to mention "Parliament" and "Funcadelic"), "George Thorogood/George Thorogood & the Destroyers", "Huey Lewis/Huey Lewis and the News", "James Cotton/James Cotton Blues Band", "Jimi Hendrix/Jimi Hendrix Experience", "Joe Strummer/Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros", "John Mayall/John Mayall & the Bluesbreakers", "Nick Cave/Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds", "Pat Metheny/Pat Metheny Group", "Paul Butterfield/The Paul Butterfield Blues Band", "Robben Ford/Robben Ford & The Blue Line", "Ronnie Earl/Ronnie Earl & The Broadcasters", "Shane MacGowan/Shane MacGowan & The Popes", "Stephen Stills/Stephen Stills & Manassas", "Stevie Ray Vaughan/Stevie Ray Vaughan & Double Trouble",...
I absolutely do not want my artist tree to show each of the 4 artists individually, except in specific cases where they performed as an individual (for example Neil Young).
Fine, you shouldn't specify this artist as multi-artist and you will not get a 4 different nodes for this group. But what if someone wants such possibility? I think this should be configurable - give to users a choice to choose how albums should be included to involved artists.
My needs are simple.

A user-defined UI separator, user-defined exceptions, and supporting of the various standard fields defined to indicate accompanied or secondary artists.
Are you sure that your needs are so simple? User-defined separator, user-defined exceptions... You think this is simpler than one single-line field and one multi-row table? From which point of view is this simple - MM developers or us, users?

I don't see any good reason to have one single-line field where I need to enter multi-artists with sepparators beside of the possibility for copy/paste. But speaking of that, I don't know why is this such a big problem. MM already has a possibility to mass-enter some values within "Edit Properties for Multiple Tracks". It is enough to select all songs from some multi-artist and to enter its involved artists into some new multi-row table for just one song - when you click on the OK button, the MM should enter the same multi-artist into all selected songs. So, why I need to copy/paste this multi-artist name at all?

I think that most natural and obvious way for all users is to enter and to see artists exactly as it is displayed on the cover of the album, without any artificial separator like "/" or ";". This is a reason why we need to have two editing possibilities: one single-line for display purpose and second multi-row table for specifying which artists are involved.
ZvezdanD
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Post by ZvezdanD »

MoDementia wrote:
ZvezdanD wrote:I suggest a single-line field to be above of the multi-artists table:
Space in the properties form is limited so I have suggested to have a button (hotkeyed) at the end of the single-line to pop up the multi-artists table or to have it pop up automatically when the field is in edit mode i.e. field clicked on to.
OK, I would be happy either if such table is on the same form with the single-field box or on the new form. But, I disagree that space in the properties form is limiting factor:

- First, we really don't need two label boxes "File path" and "Filename" - for many of us it is enough just one.

- Grouping, Original Date and Conductor should go to some another tab, e.g. Details.

- Comment field shouldn't be so big.

- There is some wasted space between Genre and Album, and between Album Artist and Grouping. Not to mention how there is some labels placed without any existing standard. For example: there are labels "Rating" and "Date" which are below of the corresponding text boxes. There is not any software which I know with such layout. Labels should be from the left or above of corresponding entering boxes, not below them. So, if you put labels which are above and below of entering boxes to the left, you could eliminate mentioned space.
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