Why Songbird will succeed where MM fails

[paulmt]

I agree with all the above comments, MM3 is still the leader in my opinion, but I would still like to see a more modern approach. I know I should explain what I'm saying but I can't put my finger on just what it is that seems to make SB seem more up to the minute!

One comment thought, I think almost everything on our PC's will be launched from a browser of some sort in the near future, so in that sense I feel SB is heading in the right direction.
I realised just recently how integrated the internet has become. My internet ISP had a major problem when I switched from ADSL which had slowed down to an average 200k download speedtest (speedtest.net)
Everything on my Quad core PC was slow - I mean really slow. Now that I have ADSL2+ up and running and I am getting download speedtest results consistently at 15,700kbps my whole PC is back to it's fasted best.
You forget that so many programmes are linking automatically to the net for updates and retrieval of data, e.g. Virus Prog's, Spam Progs, Spyware Progs, MM scripts e.g. Monkeyrok etc etc and so on.

Bring on competition and different ways of doing things, it can only make MM better

[Lowlander]

As for the internet movement, SongBird and MediaMonkey are at the same level. The internet movement (for lack of a better name) means that the applications will be hosted on the internet (ex. Google Docs). So far what I've seen is that SongBird has more (and maybe nicer integrated) online content retrieval (like MonkeyRok in MediaMonkey). The debate that can be had is what should be integrated into MediaMonkey, come as a standard plugin/script, should be scripted and made available as separate download. To be more attractive MediaMonkey could integrate some scripts and have them preconfigured so that it presents an attractive alternative to what SongBird offers. I assume that Last.fm or Pandora would form a bigger threat in this area.

I understand the feeling it's an emotional thing, it might not be rational or it might be, but it's often hard to quantify. Competition brings innovation and as long as MediaMonkey is able to innovate along things will only get better for all of us. It certainly is nice to have more options available to users that don't depend on the product being an extension of a service (like iTunes and Windows Media Player). Those applications are a means to the service, often no so much a means to enjoy your music.

Lastly although I nearly live online, develop online, but I don't see the whole online movement as such a good thing. Soon both your documents and applications depend on your ability to connect to the internet. There are too many factors that can result in the failure of the connection (what do you do when that happens). Besides privacy issues there are business reliability (many online businesses go belly up) issue to factor in. As long as your connection is more likely to fail than your PC (and with proper backups it's even better) I think were better off with our applications instead of hosted ones.

[Mucus Man]

I am new to both MediaMonkey and Songbird -- in fact, I just downloaded, installed, and started playing with both just yesterday.

I resonate with many of the comments relating to the look and feel of Songbird -- the UI is prettier and nicer on the eyes. Although I'm not excited about the overall UI of MediaMonkey, the much faster loading time and greater functionality means that I'm turning more to MM when I want to listen to MP3s on my laptop. For now, I'm using both. I think the momentum is with Songbird (it's new and exciting), but it obviously has to play catch-up in terms of functionality in comparison with Songbird. For MM's part, in order to "compete" in the long-term, it'll need to freshen up its window dressing. It's got the goods under the hood... now make it sexy. I'll stick around and hope for the best.

[M1ke]

Most of us hate iTunes even MORE (this we can agree on, no?) but it's THE most used mp3 player in the world. So don't use the fact that MM is the most downloaded media player as a confirmation of it's greatness.....perhaps they just think the alternatives are worse?

Yes, but the reason iTunes is most used is not because it is a great piece of software, its that the iPod is insanely successful and most non-techy people get an iPod, install iTunes and use that forever. If it wasn't for the iPod WMP would be the most used player, because its just there. iTunes is an awful program and I'm sure I don't need to to into details of why.

Whilst your criticisms can be accepted, Media Monkey has made lots of efforts to become more usable and better looking since version 2, but at the end of the day people love it because of how advanced it is. I used to get annoyed that I had to have a program for playing music and managing my library (WinAmp), a program for ripping CDs (CDEx) and one for converting music (dB PowerAmp). I found Media Monkey and fell in love with the fact that anything I could think of, it could do. Party Mode was the one enviable feature of iTunes, and it did that and better. Auto-DJ is fantastic, far better than the method with every other player of having to playlist all your music then set it to shuffle. I found most things very accessible too - I've used every single feature of Media Monkey and never looked at any help files.

There's only a single criticism I could level at MM and that is that sometimes navigating the nodes and searching seems to confuse the player and its not obvious whether you've canceled a search or which node you're viewing. Other than that rare encounter its a perfect program from my point of view - even more so now I have it running a UPnP Server on one PC and a UPnP client from my flash drive. Maybe it won't take off massively, but neither will Songbird to be honest, because if people can be happy with the crap that is iTunes, then they're never going to switch.

[Dreadlau]

Today I played a bit with songbird.
And I found the UI gorgeous and really well thought for the most part.




IMAO Several things contribute to make the interface cleaner and simpler than mediamonkey's one.

In red:No title bar for the window. Files,Edit,controls, ... are on the same level as the close,restore,minimize buttons.
=>More space,cleaner and simpler.

In green:The tree looks amazing with a nice effect when you select an item.

In yellow:The status bar seems to be superposed on top of the library pane border making it more discreet.

In blue:Buttons to hide/show/choose the extra panels (not just the "now playing pane" like in MM)


I bring up these elements because I don't think (Correct me if I'm wrong) that you can reproduce them with the skin engine in MM.
There is tons of other inspiring details that I noticed but I will not write them down today. As I think it's time I go sleep

What do you think? What's your experience with songbird interface?

[DreadM]

Greetings

A nice screenshot,nice and clear,remembers me something.
Your right this can't be done withe the MM Skin engine ,
until now we can do something like this ,just play abit with Noir skin, but i am shure in the future coming some more skinning features.

[khaji00]

IMHO, as a new MM3 Gold User:

I agree with Sebastian. This is definitely a more technical oriented software than other media players, i dont see how this isnt obvious? I compare MM to the PalmOS and the compilation of user scripts to CPAN. Where are they today? The same place they were years ago... I've used the free MM versions in the past and could not convince myself to grab a copy of gold for the following reasons. We have players like Songbird and Amarok 2 for Windows (http://amarok.kde.org/blog/archives/374 ... ndows.html for those of you who are familiar with the Linux media player)

MM3, especially Gold, is an amazing media player. That being said, its not perfect [nor do i expect it to be, and i dont know of a media player that is]. There are things that can, and should be, improved. The internet radio doesnt work very well [if it works at all], for a user who paid for a premium version this is a little frustrating. I find myself on pandora or last.fm most of the time feeding my internet radio needs.

The Add-Ons/Plugins need to be revamped. I've mentioned this before but it didnt seem to take off after a discussion: http://mediamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34469 . I dont want to search a HUGE list of scripts to find what i want or need. Sometimes people DONT KNOW WHAT THEY WANT, they want to DISCOVER new scripts. I find myself on Mozilla Add Ons looking for cool new features. This feature isnt available for MM, only with extensive searching, reading posts, peoples signatures, fan pages, you are able to discover new cool things.

The interface IS overly complicating, no doubt about it. The interface could use a facelift, and YES i know about skins, and YES i have used them. How about a iPhone/iPod Touch remote app to control MM on the same network, like a remote? Songbird and iTunes have it. UPADTE: Of course the minute post this i notice iMonkey: http://mediamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32766

Tabs NEED to be implemented. People who use MM love music, which i'm assuming want to stay close to the media player and not have navigate through different software (like i am now, to listen to my music and then to write a post). I am on CD Universe inside MM looking at music, there are sample audio files on the page to listen to. Songbird would grab all those and display them at the bottom of the page and play them as native audio files. MM on the other hand continues to play its own music, while a web based windows media player plays them simultaneously with my music creating a bad remix.

I find myself switching between Songbird and MM because neither one can fit my needs, and obviously man peoples.

[Dreadlau]

DreadM I like your modification

Mmm I hope I'm not being rude but do you think you could send it to me plz?

Ah. It's so frustrating that I have my exams for the next two weeks and that I must study.
If I had time. I promise I would try to learn skinning right now.

Ps: I'm hoping with you for the adding of new features.

[Sebastian78]

This has turned out to be a VERY good discussion, which just what I wanted. No shouting, no fist fights and no crying

Really, I would love yo continue to use MM for the foreseeable future. Just as long as issues discussed here are addressed and MM continues to evolve.

But have this in mind, not THE best technical solutions win over inferior ones. It's the perceived user friendliness, ie. that's why iTunes has soo many users. Even if other solutions are BETTER, they won't gain momentum because they are perceived as outdated (visually, not technically) and difficult to use (perceived, not actual).

• NO NEW MM FUNCTIONS!!!! Just get an add-on function that works, a database for them and leave it to external developers!
• Work on streamlining the interface
• Work on improving current functions
• Work on streamlining current functions, ie. less clicks and less hassle

Oh.....I want to play some music now

[danhackley]

I wouldn't use Songbird because the album art handling looks a bit crap ! Mediamonkey has been much improved with the addition of the Monkeyflow script.

[jiri]

Sebastian78,

I agree that there were some interesting points raised and we also already have some plans. So stay tuned, there will be new things in MM 4.0!

Jiri

[Dreadlau]

I like the identity of Mediamonkey.

But I must say that the web integration in Songbird is a great idea.
And the user friendliness for addon and skin management is a sucess.

I think it's the direction MM should take in the future.

I'm confident you'll find the best way to integrate some of the songbird features in MM
without bloating it.

I'm already inpatient for 4.0.

Thank you for this great software Mediamonkey team

[danhackley]

Just tried the coverflow feature of Songbird.... it's much less smooth than the Monkeyflow on Mediamonkey, even on my quad core running Vista.

[Nebbin]

I'm still not sold on the idea of full web browsing integration into a media player. I guess I prefer to keep my apps separate if they don't prove to be highly synergistic (which I don't see here). The tabs would be of far greater benefit to me if they could display playlists, database searches or node listings, but that would probably lead to a huge memory grab.

Songbird's simplified display is clean and easier to look at, and although MM can be made to look somewhat similar, I feel more can probably be done to improve this.

Cripes, 4.0? That's cruel to dangle such a carrot when 3.1 isn't even finalised yet! lol

[Sebastian78]

Sebastian78,

I agree that there were some interesting points raised and we also already have some plans. So stay tuned, there will be new things in MM 4.0!

Jiri

4.OOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhh

I know we can't get everything right away! Thanks for the reply...