Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

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Re: Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by x1TUFSS » Thu Feb 16, 2023 8:05 am

MiPi wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:47 am Ability to not send Album Artist, when scrobbling, added: https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=19799
Will be part of next 5.1 alpha release. I can send you changed last.FM script and you can test it in advance in your current build (it is compatible), if you wish. You could switch this off in last.FM options then.
Thank you for the prompt resolution 8)

Please do send it if it's not too much trouble, I would like to give it a try.

Re: Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by MiPi » Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:47 am

Ability to not send Album Artist, when scrobbling, added: https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=19799
Will be part of next 5.1 alpha release. I can send you changed last.FM script and you can test it in advance in your current build (it is compatible), if you wish. You could switch this off in last.FM options then.

Re: Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by Barry4679 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:33 am

x1TUFSS wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:56 pm I think we've established that MMA and MM4 both scrobble the Artist field only, while MM5 scrobbles both Artist and Album Artist field. The latter behaviour is causing fragmentation on its own, but as I'm using MMA, that fragmentation is being furthered by inconsistency, as right or wrong, MMA still behaves differently to MM5.
Actually it was you that established the MM4 & MMA behaviour. I had only looked at what MM5 was doing.
I had a look at MMA today, and I agree that it not submitting the AlbumArtist tag. I tested with both SimpleScrobbles and the LFM's own android scrobbler.

I haven't yet grasped what you think would be correct scrobble behaviour. I presume you think that MM5 is correct, but you have LFM stats library built upon the MM4|MMA false scrobbles, so you are conflicted?

You could move forward with a consistent approach; MM5 and Android scrobbling the AlbumArtist tag accurately.

MM5|MMA can sync your tracks to your android device, but you don't have to use MMA to play the tracks.
I have Poweramp on my (android) phone. I tested it to play and scrobble the tracks that MM5 had synced there. Poweramp scrobbles the AlbumArtist tags correctly, ie. like MM5. Poweramp is a good looking player. amd unlike MMA it gets frequent updates and new features.

You are more invested in this than me. I only use my LFM account as a catch-all funnel to collect all track plays; most of my plays at home are using Sonos equipment, and I need to feed these into MM5. I want MM5 to hold all of my track history, for use when making MM autoplaylists.

So I don't care too much what my LFM history looks like, and had never noticed the fragmentation in the LFM album history until you pointed it out. And in my case it is minimal, because I was doing my own scrobbling when I was using MM4, and I was scrobbling the AlbumArtist tag correctly.

Re: Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by x1TUFSS » Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:56 pm

Barry4679 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:21 pmThat's a problem that is usually handled context.
Ie. how we understand the meaning of Apple ... a piece of fruit, or a gadget? ... we figure this out from the context where it is used.

It is harder with people, or groups, as anyone whose name is John Smith would already know. :)
I looked at your example of Skid Row (US). This is how Wikipedia does it.
You could pick the artist who "owns" the name from your POV, and tag them as "Skid Row", and tag the other as "Skid Row (Irish Band)"

You said your tag is "Skid Row (US)", so you appear to have already done that.
So in LFM you already have them disambiguated by Artist.
I am still not completely understanding how it disturbs your Album history in LFM, or makes you unhappy.
Is the problem that MM4 scrobbled these incorrectly (ie. used the Artist tag in the Album displays) ... and now that they have corrected this error, it has fragmented your LFM history?

A person who is a LFM subscriber can edit the tags in their scrobble submissions.
Here is how it works.

I tried editing that test scrobble that I did for you ... ie. the one where I changed the AlbumArtist from The Turtles to Mark Volman.
The test scrobble (with the dud tag) did add a phantom album to my LFM account.
And the test scrobble submission was not credited against the album.
So I edited the scrobble using the subscriber-only facility. You can see that it fixed the Album history in the before and after shots here.
The phantom able is still there, but my guess is that it will get housekept away, because it no longer has any scrobbles.

You could spend $3, and become a subscriber for a month, and see whether you can tidy things up those arose from the MM4 MMA bug that you report?

There is some discussion on this general topic here.
I only alter the Album Artist tag to differentiate between artists using the same name from different regions/eras; the Artist tags use the names as they are, with no additions. This is done for grouping's sake (Album Artist), and to accommodate credited guest artists, backing bands, etc (Artist).

I think we've established that MMA and MM4 both scrobble the Artist field only, while MM5 scrobbles both Artist and Album Artist field. The latter behaviour is causing fragmentation on its own, but as I'm using MMA, that fragmentation is being furthered by inconsistency, as right or wrong, MMA still behaves differently to MM5.

Automatic scrobble editing would indeed solve this, at extra cost. Given how useful I've found it over the years, I might just do that.

Re: Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by Barry4679 » Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:21 pm

x1TUFSS wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:48 pm The question is, how do I separate multiple artists with the same name without resorting to the Album Artist field? Perhaps I'm missing a trick.
That's a problem that is usually handled context.
Ie. how we understand the meaning of Apple ... a piece of fruit, or a gadget? ... we figure this out from the context where it is used.

It is harder with people, or groups, as anyone whose name is John Smith would already know. :)
I looked at your example of Skid Row (US). This is how Wikipedia does it.
You could pick the artist who "owns" the name from your POV, and tag them as "Skid Row", and tag the other as "Skid Row (Irish Band)"

You said your tag is "Skid Row (US)", so you appear to have already done that.
So in LFM you already have them disambiguated by Artist.
I am still not completely understanding how it disturbs your Album history in LFM, or makes you unhappy.
Is the problem that MM4 scrobbled these incorrectly (ie. used the Artist tag in the Album displays) ... and now that they have corrected this error, it has fragmented your LFM history?

A person who is a LFM subscriber can edit the tags in their scrobble submissions.
Here is how it works.

I tried editing that test scrobble that I did for you ... ie. the one where I changed the AlbumArtist from The Turtles to Mark Volman.
The test scrobble (with the dud tag) did add a phantom album to my LFM account.
And the test scrobble submission was not credited against the album.
So I edited the scrobble using the subscriber-only facility. You can see that it fixed the Album history in the before and after shots here.
The phantom able is still there, but my guess is that it will get housekept away, because it no longer has any scrobbles.

You could spend $3, and become a subscriber for a month, and see whether you can tidy things up those arose from the MM4 MMA bug that you report?

There is some discussion on this general topic here.

Re: Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by x1TUFSS » Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:48 pm

Barry4679 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:24 pm But the thing is that I would see the MM5 behaviour as being correct, and I would have seen the MM4 behaviour that you are reporting as being an very annoying bug.

My POV is:
  • the track belongs to the Artist
  • but the album belongs to the AlbumArtist
  • anything else would fragment an album into multiple albums, one for each contributing Artist, which is just destructive bloat IMO
  • if the album didn't belong to a single collective entity, then it wouldn't be a thing would it? .. other than bloat
  • the reason that my test track created a phantom album at LFM, was because I intentionally tagged it incorrectly, ie. I put it into another album
This is fair. The question is, how do I separate multiple artists with the same name without resorting to the Album Artist field? Perhaps I'm missing a trick.

Re: Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by Barry4679 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:24 pm

x1TUFSS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:02 pmI forgot to mention that this only affects 'Album' views on Last.fm - the scrobbles themselves use the Artist field. Individual scrobbles will display the correct artist(s), while lists of albums, including collages generated from LFM data, use the Album Artist field. This is definitely a change in behaviour from MM4 and MMA, as I'm still running MMA alongside MM5 and now have duplicates appearing on LFM, despite all tags being identical - needless to say, MM5 and MMA are both synchronised.
I confirm what you are seeing here.
The test track I mentioned last time, did create an album at LFM by Mark Volman.

I can't verify if MM4 was different because the LFM Scrobbler doesn't seem to be baked in there.
But the thing is that I would see the MM5 behaviour as being correct, and I would have seen the MM4 behaviour that you are reporting as being an very annoying bug.

My POV is:
  • the track belongs to the Artist
  • but the album belongs to the AlbumArtist
  • anything else would fragment an album into multiple albums, one for each contributing Artist, which is just destructive bloat IMO
  • if the album didn't belong to a single collective entity, then it wouldn't be a thing would it? .. other than bloat
  • the reason that my test track created a phantom album at LFM, was because I intentionally tagged it incorrectly, ie. I put it into another album
When I look at the test track via the Artist, the track has correctly been attributed to the Artist, not the AlbumArtist ... ie. my LFM account is not being bloated with non-existent "artists" like "Various Artists" etc.
x1TUFSS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:02 pm The editing facility is only available on paid accounts, it seems, but I have already tested with and without automatic scrobble correction. No dice.
I was just suggesting that you could use it to verify exactly what MM5 has scrobbled to your account.


Peke wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:51 pm LFM is Artist orientated not Album, about compilations we can't even talk as it is non existent.
Ok, another thing we can disagree upon :)

Maybe you meant to say
MM is very track orientated, and is not album orientated enough.
Maybe that's something thet we could both agree upon? :D

Re: Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by Peke » Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:51 pm

x1TUFSS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:02 pm The editing facility is only available on paid accounts, it seems, but I have already tested with and without automatic scrobble correction. No dice.
:( When they changed that. Too bad I really liked LFM :(
x1TUFSS wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:02 pm I forgot to mention that this only affects 'Album' views on Last.fm
Album view was never correct on LFM they have strange criteria for showing/listing them.
See this one :( https://www.last.fm/music/Daft+Punk/Tro ... oundtrack) which should actually show this https://www.last.fm/user/PekeMM/library ... oundtrack)

LFM is Artist orientated not Album, about compilations we can't even talk as it is non existent.

Re: Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by x1TUFSS » Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:02 pm

Barry4679 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:25 pm I would ignore Peke's comments re the api change. It is not relevant, and the comment about track info is not correct anyway.

I don't use MM to scrobble support, because I want finer control over what is scrobbled to my account.
But I have just turned it on to see if I can replicate your problem.

I cannot replicate the problem.
I scrobbled three tracks from my library, which have differences between their Artist and AlbumArtist tags.
These tracks. The scrobbles are correct. Here is what LFM received for the last track. I had changed the AlbumArtist from The Turles to Mark Volman. You can see here that LFM received both the Artist and AlbumArtist tags, and the other image showed that attributed the play as per the Artist tag .. ie. as expected, and the same as MM4.

Try editing one of your problem scrobbles, like this, to see what was received from MM ... Maybe the facility is only available for paid LFM account? I am not sure.
Peke wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:39 pmIt is possible that Last.fm automatically filter/correct metadata according to API documents.
This is a possibility.
LFM do try to keep the database tidy and useful, by correcting tags in some submissions.
If either MMA or MM4 still scrobbles one of these tracks correctly, that would allow you to rule this out.

LFM do some weird things. Eg. if I scrobble a track using AlbumArtist of "Various Artists", the scrobble is accepted and uses whatever is in the Artist tag. But I have a lot of CDs that were free with Uncut Magazine. I have the AlbumArtist tag for these as "Various Artists Uncut". LFM completely ignores these scrobbles. But it accepts a scrobble submission where the AlbumArtist tag is "Various - Jazz" ... So they have some unpublished validation rules. Since I have my own scrobbler I have it set to amend the AlbumArtist tag before submission to overcome this problem.

LFM did use to notify the scrobbler when the "corrected" a tag, but this one of the things that did get lost when they updated their API
I forgot to mention that this only affects 'Album' views on Last.fm - the scrobbles themselves use the Artist field. Individual scrobbles will display the correct artist(s), while lists of albums, including collages generated from LFM data, use the Album Artist field. This is definitely a change in behaviour from MM4 and MMA, as I'm still running MMA alongside MM5 and now have duplicates appearing on LFM, despite all tags being identical - needless to say, MM5 and MMA are both synchronised.

The editing facility is only available on paid accounts, it seems, but I have already tested with and without automatic scrobble correction. No dice.

Re: Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by Peke » Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:40 am

Hi,
Barry4679 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:25 pm I would ignore Peke's comments re the api change. It is not relevant, and the comment about track info is not correct anyway.
It is the mare fact :( I remember that I had lots of issues making MM4 LFM plugin due the issues with API and make them accept all the scrobbles. You are right it is irrelevant, but from past exp would not exclude it.

THX for tests.
Barry4679 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:25 pm LFM did use to notify the scrobbler when the "corrected" a tag, but this one of the things that did get lost when they updated their API
I can't agree more, I missed that feature when I initially examined 2.0 WEB API.

Re: Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by Barry4679 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:25 pm

I would ignore Peke's comments re the api change. It is not relevant, and the comment about track info is not correct anyway.

I don't use MM to scrobble support, because I want finer control over what is scrobbled to my account.
But I have just turned it on to see if I can replicate your problem.

I cannot replicate the problem.
I scrobbled three tracks from my library, which have differences between their Artist and AlbumArtist tags.
These tracks. The scrobbles are correct. Here is what LFM received for the last track. I had changed the AlbumArtist from The Turles to Mark Volman. You can see here that LFM received both the Artist and AlbumArtist tags, and the other image showed that attributed the play as per the Artist tag .. ie. as expected, and the same as MM4.

Try editing one of your problem scrobbles, like this, to see what was received from MM ... Maybe the facility is only available for paid LFM account? I am not sure.
Peke wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:39 pmIt is possible that Last.fm automatically filter/correct metadata according to API documents.
This is a possibility.
LFM do try to keep the database tidy and useful, by correcting tags in some submissions.
If either MMA or MM4 still scrobbles one of these tracks correctly, that would allow you to rule this out.

LFM do some weird things. Eg. if I scrobble a track using AlbumArtist of "Various Artists", the scrobble is accepted and uses whatever is in the Artist tag. But I have a lot of CDs that were free with Uncut Magazine. I have the AlbumArtist tag for these as "Various Artists Uncut". LFM completely ignores these scrobbles. But it accepts a scrobble submission where the AlbumArtist tag is "Various - Jazz" ... So they have some unpublished validation rules. Since I have my own scrobbler I have it set to amend the AlbumArtist tag before submission to overcome this problem.

LFM did use to notify the scrobbler when the "corrected" a tag, but this one of the things that did get lost when they updated their API

Re: Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by Peke » Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:39 pm

Hi,
MM5 Uses API 2.0 and MM4 uses old outdated API that do not support all track info.

Here is example what MM5 sends for now playing https://www.last.fm/api/show/track.updateNowPlaying same info is also sent for Scrobbled tracks. It is possible that Last.fm automatically filter/correct metadata according to API documents.

Last.fm Artist vs. Album Artist

by x1TUFSS » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:25 pm

I'm on MM 5.0.4.2690, but noticed this as soon as I upgraded to MM5: the Last.fm scrobbler uses the Album Artist field, contrary to the behaviour of both MM4 and MMA which scrobbles the Artist. This has caused a lot of duplicate artist pages to be generated, particularly as I have multiple instances of bands/artists from different countries using the same name, and previously used the Album Artist field to separate them, e.g. "Skid Row (US)" as opposed to the defunct Irish group which first used the name. Could this behaviour be reverted, or made configurable? Thanks.

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