[quote=Lowlander post_id=530796 time=1765323751 user_id=262]
I always start with, do you miss something when listening to your media. If you're happy with it, then I wouldn't worry to much. If the sound isn't what you'd expect or you miss the surround channels than I'd do some more investigation like via USB drive or cast via DLNA from another software. You can also contact the receiver manufacturer's support for help.
[/quote]

Yeah, but honestly I'm not experience enough to tell the difference between real 5.1 and simulated from the AVR where it takes 2 channel and fabricates a 5.1.

And yes, I realize that's an argument that it doesn't matter. But on the other hand if there's something simple I could fix/change/add to solve that....

Seemed worth a few hours research. Sorry I dragged you down the same rathole.

I always start with, do you miss something when listening to your media. If you're happy with it, then I wouldn't worry to much. If the sound isn't what you'd expect or you miss the surround channels than I'd do some more investigation like via USB drive or cast via DLNA from another software. You can also contact the receiver manufacturer's support for help.

Yeah, I give up. Got the debug log, had forgotten how that works, thanks for the pointer.

See it serving the flac file, don't know what else to look for, but I wonder if the absence of any info on format conversion means it is being converted in the AVR?

But the underlying question was can I get some kind of a red flag if there is a bad (as in losing channels or quality or something) conversion, and the answer seems to be "no".

So certainly won't start buying surround sound audio files. :lol:

Thank you for your patience.

You can either [url=https://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=86643]review DebugView (step 4b)[/url] or the Server tab (it at least show file send as FLAC (but this doesn't show channels in send file)), and see if you can understand more about what MediaMonkey is doing.

Thanks for trying. I'm a bit too dense I think to figure it out.

I guess it's possible that they actually can decode the 5.1 stream and for some (marketing? licensing?) reason choose to change it to stereo.

But short of sniffing the network and trying to decode something I know nothing about, not sure I have any other tools.

Thanks.

Streaming generally just sends the file as-is, it's up to the client to play the file. This is unless auto-conversion is set to happen in MediaMonkey.
So either:
1. The client is incorrectly reading/displaying channels via DLNA playback
2. The Auto-Conversion/Supported Formats settings in MediaMonkey cause conversion

Ticket opened.

I'm not sure if this helps or not, but here is a fresh, free version of MM on a laptop, with just that one 5.1 track added, hooked via HDMI with the output sound configured for 5.1 with vanilla windows "stuff", and the input to the AVR set to Pure Direct so it won't modify it.

It does 5.1.

Again, this may be an AVR limitation, but it seems odd that an AVR that can't handle a 5.1 DLNA file could downsample the same file it claims not to be able to decode, you would think it would just refuse. That's why I am confused, and why it SEEMS like it is Media Monkey that was doing it.

But it would appear that for this setup, I'd need a system directly connected to the AVR to get 5.1 output.

But at the moment this is more an educational exercise than anything else -- channels are just one thing that I might be losing when I stream, I don't actually know what I do not know, what else may be disappearing.

[img]https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Skxx22t/0/MHJWzGJzbPK6mMvGBdhfmg4d3gC28HqR8Hrvzmhwg/O/i-Skxx22t.jpg[/img]

Yes, if you don't have the original download on your PC you'll need to [url=https://www.mediamonkey.com/support]contact Support[/url]. Updating can be done with the trial version once you have a paid version installed.

[quote=Lowlander post_id=530785 time=1765310465 user_id=262]
Via VLC & HDMI is a very different type of connection (although you could try MM in the same way). It's about the Receiver decoding the file. Ie. via a different Media Server or via USB.
[/quote]
I realize that but it was to demonstrate that the audio file actually was 5.1 and the contained signal could be seen as 5.1.

The issue that concerns me is when access MM as a DLNA server, what is down-converting the 5.1 to stereo?

[quote=Lowlander post_id=530785 time=1765310465 user_id=262]
Yes, arrow means it's not installed, I'd recommend installing it again.
[/quote]

I guess though I'd need to open a ticket? The download one is a trial, right? I would need the original one I downloaded in 2022 to have a licensed one? I didn't get a license code for it. The invoice says there's a limited time download link (and that's from the old defunct service).

Though I still am unclear if that is in any way related to what I'm seeing.

Via VLC & HDMI is a very different type of connection (although you could try MM in the same way). It's about the Receiver decoding the file. Ie. via a different Media Server or via USB.

Yes, arrow means it's not installed, I'd recommend installing it again.

(a search for [i]5.1 flac surround test sample[/i] will find some sample files. Use you're own discretion as to what you trust to download).

[quote=Lowlander post_id=530781 time=1765301052 user_id=262]
1. Are you streaming via DLNA (as you indicate) or Chromecast?
[/quote]

I am accessing MM from the AVR as a "Media Server" and searching out the 5.1 track.

I don't think 5.1 is possible via Chromecast for audio. Not sure though.

[quote=Lowlander post_id=530781 time=1765301052 user_id=262]
2a. Do you have a different method to play the same FLAC on the receiver? USB or another media server? This is to test that the FLAC can be seen with proper channels by the receiver.
[/quote]

Yes, as mentioned I took that track on a laptop hooked to the AVR via HDMI and played via VLC (I don't have MM on that laptop, it's on a desktop).

[quote=Lowlander post_id=530781 time=1765301052 user_id=262]
2b. Do you have or can you download a 5.1 FLAC file with channel announcements/test, so you can hear if a 5.1 file is played as stereo or 5.1 on the receiver?
[/quote]

So far I've only found those with video, and playing video is a different thing of course. But the AVR has an "info" button which will show on its screen all the info about both input signal, what kind of processing (if any) is occurring, and how many output speakers it is sent to, as well as sample rate and file types. For this file it shows 2 input channels. For the same file played via an HDMI connection with VLC it shows 5.1. It's an audio only file, not video, but apparently HDMI will work.

I did find in the manual that USB will not -- you cannot play USB 5.1 audio on this AVR, oddly enough. Nor from file shares. (It's a Denon X3800H). It has a section that says "Playing back a file saved on a PC or NAS" that clearly says FLAC (actually all formats) only does 2 channel, but I think the HDMI input is a different thing. What isn't clear is whether this also includes DLNA playback.

But it's possible the limitation is in the AVR. However, if that's the limitation what is doing the conversion.

(As I mentioned above, it's possible it's playing something cached, but I have rebooted MM and power cycled the AVR without anything vanishing, and I only have 3 5.1 Audio files and every one will play (as stereo)).

[quote=Lowlander post_id=530781 time=1765301052 user_id=262]
3. Which Build (Help > About) of MediaMonkey are you currently on?
[/quote]

2024.2.0.3175 (portable)

[quote=Lowlander post_id=530781 time=1765301052 user_id=262]
4a. When you don't have the MediaMonkey Codec Pack you'll lack access to certain conversion settings and have issues playing certain files in MediaMonkey when you don't have the MediaMonkey Codec Pack. However unsupported files can be cast as rendering happens on the client (you can't auto-convert them).
4b. Portable shouldn't loose the MediaMonkey Codec Pack on updates, and never did for me.
[/quote]

If I go into Tools, Addons, search Codec, and see MediaMonkey codec pack, it shows a down-arrow making me think it is not already there. If I got to Options, PLayer, Codec's, and look for something mentioned in the codec page you referenced (AAC for example) I don't see it there. There are a lot of things that have "plugin" in them (e.g. DSD Foprmat plugin V1.0).

So I really have no idea. I bought it in case I needed it, I have no recollection if I ever installed it, though this is the same PC. I did move MM a couple times between it and a server (like) system and ended up back on the desktop.

I only mentioned the codec pack in case that's related to my question. I'm not sure it is. Where I really got confused is the idea something is doing a conversion (to lesser quality) without me knowing it, and wondering how often that may be happening.

To be sure we are on the same page about what I changed, this is where I cleared all the settings:

[img]https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-FbPGDvB/0/LJvzkcmLCgFKCzWKkG8QqfvtH6D9qJBfcdq3bvgK3/O/i-FbPGDvB.jpg[/img]

And this is what shows when it is playing on the AVR, notice the channels on input. When I play the same track via HDMI (with VLC) it comes shows input and output in 5.1.

[img]https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-pvvz6m9/0/NMjDrcQs66DtWkJ3zSK3WjNLm3ztB44B8z8f649gc/O/i-pvvz6m9.jpg[/img]

And in the details screen of MM it shows:

[img]https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-QXz2cmz/0/LbmPGdCmmSKwXQXcxfs6rdx3JQgzfLxJSN5J5Q2Pd/O/i-QXz2cmz.jpg[/img]

The last played is a bit confusing since it's yesterday and I am literally playing it as I type this. Maybe it updates only when complete? Or local (vs server)?

I'm really going brain dead also, as I thought there was a pretty detailed log but I can't find any log file at all. Maybe it doesn't produce one if you don't download the debug version? I think you just posted a new version, maybe I should grab that and the debug version?

I think it's still relevant to emphasize I am not so much trying to make something work, as to raise my own ability to determine when something is not working (and falling back and losing quality).

1. Are you streaming via DLNA (as you indicate) or Chromecast?

2a. Do you have a different method to play the same FLAC on the receiver? USB or another media server? This is to test that the FLAC can be seen with proper channels by the receiver.
2b. Do you have or can you download a 5.1 FLAC file with channel announcements/test, so you can hear if a 5.1 file is played as stereo or 5.1 on the receiver?

3. Which Build (Help > About) of MediaMonkey are you currently on?

4a. When you don't have the MediaMonkey Codec Pack you'll lack access to certain conversion settings and have issues playing certain files in MediaMonkey when you don't have the MediaMonkey Codec Pack. However unsupported files can be cast as rendering happens on the client (you can't auto-convert them).
4b. Portable shouldn't loose the MediaMonkey Codec Pack on updates, and never did for me.

[quote=Lowlander post_id=530775 time=1765296056 user_id=262]
For casting via DLNA you can [url=https://www.mediamonkey.com/wiki/WebHelp:Setting_UPnP_DLNA_Media_Servers#Sharing_the_Library_over_UPnP_(DLNA)]control how things are Auto-Converted in the Media Sharing settings[/url]. This is where channel settings can also be found.
[/quote]

I found those, but I do not understand what roles they play, are they negotiated separately from this, is this about the PC/MM side hardware software and what role does the target play with respect to these settings.

Let me give a specific example. I have a flac file (shown as a supported format on those windows) which is 5.1 encoded channels. In the setup all 8 channels are checked on the auto conversion details. This all defaulted I did not set it (I think, though I've had this for many, many years so who knows). If I play a 5.1/flac track, it arrives on the AVR as stereo not 5.1.

I turned off all media monkey conversion on the indicated screen, it still comes through as stereo. I expected it to fail. No box is checked on the media sharing, auto-conversion window.

I took the track on a laptop and played it with VLC and HDMI into the AVR and it comes out 5.1, so it really is 5.1 (and MM's detail property page shows 5.1).

So something is quietly converting it when I do a DLNA stream, and I do not know what. I ASSUMED it was MM since I would think if incompatible with the renderer it also could not convert it. Unless something is caching from when the auto-conversions were checked, but if so I have no idea what to change/flush.

So I am still confused.

[quote=Lowlander post_id=530775 time=1765296056 user_id=262]
What the MediaMonkey Codec Pack provides is described here: https://www.mediamonkey.com/addons/browse/item/mediamonkey-5-codec-pack/ If you own it, I would install it.
[/quote]

Hard to tell. I bought it in 2022 with MM5, but I use "portable" setup and I think every time I install I probably lose it.

But... this is part of what I am trying to understand... if I do not have it, and need it, where would that lack actually show up?

The auto-conversions that happen seem to prevent the obvious "if you don't have it, X doesn't play at all". Or is that different for codec's vs the compatible conversions in the server section?

For casting via DLNA you can [url=https://www.mediamonkey.com/wiki/WebHelp:Setting_UPnP_DLNA_Media_Servers#Sharing_the_Library_over_UPnP_(DLNA)]control how things are Auto-Converted in the Media Sharing settings[/url]. This is where channel settings can also be found.

What the MediaMonkey Codec Pack provides is described here: https://www.mediamonkey.com/addons/browse/item/mediamonkey-5-codec-pack/ If you own it, I would install it.

For audiophiles I apologize in advance if this is a bit like saying "How do I know if I'm thirsty"...

I started redoing (well, really just doing) a home theater setup and realize the depths of my ignorance on aspects of encoding, channels, signal processing, and the like.

All the things (including Media Monkey) involved tend to be smart and helpful. Incompatible formats? Let me transcode that for you in some way. Real example: 5.1 channel source and incompatible streaming, let me reduce it to stereo to stream, tthen fake it up to 5.1 again to play.

The result is I worry some of what I do is handicapping my nice shiny new system, that I may have good quality music being crippled by some aspect of how it gets to my ears. For example, it appears that 5.1 music (I bought some) cannot be streamed either via Cast to Google TV 4k from MM, or via DLNA to my AVR. I THINK this limitation is on those devices not MM, but not sure MM isn't similarly unable (or why).

The issue, honestly, is that nothing fails -- everything actually functions and music comes out. But in that case it got crippled in transit. I have no idea how many other similar cases I have, did I rip the CD's (yes, I own them and still have them, let's not go off on that tangent) in ways that are troubled by the path to sound?

I do not even quite know the question I am asking; are there good documents that explain use cases?

Example: I bought the MM codec pack long ago, but don't think I installed it -- how do I know if I need it? Will some music just not play (stream)? Or is its lack causing it to play in lower quality?

Is there an easy place to look (in MM?) to see if I cast music and in doing so lose channels? Is there a setting that would let me cause it to simply fail (hopefully with an identifiable reason) instead of down-sample in some fashion?

I'd also at least like the ability to fail to stream things that cannot preserve the input quality/channels. Or somehow warn me.

I am not asking so much what all the alphabetic soup of codecs and encoding is, but how to actually tell if my setup is not supporting them (and MM or other aspects are trying to help me by hiding that fact)?

Or is the answer 'go educate yourself and stop asking stupid questions'?

Linwood