FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

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Expand view Topic review: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

by MattTown » Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:31 pm

I last imported comments a long time ago, my recollection is that I used MP3Tag to write the values to the music files, which was then read by the MM import process, but I can't find my notes from that time.

Thanks for the hint about SQL Editor, I'll check it out.

Cheers

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

by Barry4679 » Thu Jan 05, 2023 4:25 am

MattTown wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:39 am Sorry, my screen isn't configured like yours and I can't seem to find how to do so
That is probably because we are using different skins.
There is a link to the one that I use in my forum sig below.
MattTown wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:39 am
I expect that MM5 does not actually save the notes into the database unless they are edited, correct?
I haven't seen any documentation about this facility, but that is what I observe when looking in the database.
MattTown wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:39 am My thoughts on the notes panels themselves were that they could be displayed in the right panel as album art and lyrics can be at the moment, which would make them available when the Main List was being displayed in the centre panel, my main mode of operation.
I agree. That would be a very useful enhancement.
The comment made to me, during the beta test phase of MM5, was that the Album and Artist notes facilities where not being migrated into MM5 because next to nobody used them.
But since the Album & Artist notes facility was all but invisible in MM4 ... actually they were even LESS visible that in MM4 ... So I think that the perceived lack of popularity for the feature was very much a chicken and egg situation, where the MM4 implementation wasn't much more than a thought bubble.

I have never noticed the Edit Comments facility until your query. And it was not explained to me when I made my original query.
So maybe this is early signs of a Work In Progress? I hope so.
MattTown wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:39 am Unfortunately, having the data in MM5 isn't everything. I also need to be able to export it so that I can combine it with the track data that I can export via the File List command into an episode script. I can't see a means of exporting artist and album notes via the native menus - is there an addon which would do that?
I don't know about an addon.
There is no way to do that in native MM5. A "comment" can be exported, but it is only track level comments.
You would be wanting separate exports facilities for Album, and for Artist level data.
Maybe even for Composer and Conductor and Publisher levels also.

Yoo could extract the data if you had a SQL Browser to read the MM5 database.
You can SEE the data by using the MM5 addon named SQL Editor.
eg. To see Artist level notes, type the following command into it, and press Execute.

Code: Select all

select artist, comment
from artists
where comment is not null and comment <> ''
You could add your request to have an export enhancement to the SQL Editor Addon here in this thread.
MattTown wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:39 am And would I be able to import the artist and album notes as I can for tracks and playlists?
Not ATM.
How do you import track note data atm?

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

by MattTown » Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:39 am

Barry,

Thanks for that prompt and considered reply. Glad to see that MM5 does indeed have structures for notes on Artist and Album.
Hints: to get to the Album or Artist Detail panels, you access by clicking the name when it is display is high lite .
I get the same access to the panels by clicking on individual artists and albums from the node tree in the left panel.
Same thing in the blue areas here.
Sorry, my screen isn't configured like yours and I can't seem to find how to do so, but no matter, I understand the general principle of accessing the notes panels via explicit artist or album links in the interface.
Does this achieve what you want?
Yes, partially. The edit features you've pointed out are sufficient for my "recording data" purposes; thanks for showing me the access path. I hadn't looked hard enough in the three dots menu because the first options I saw were to edit the data in the native source area (eg Wikipedia) and I didn't want to do that. Yes I can see how not having access to notes editing if there is no text from the sources should be treated as a bug.
I expect that MM5 does not actually save the notes into the database unless they are edited, correct?
The problem is general accessibility to this data. It will always be available in the Artist and Album Detail panels. But you can't easily trigger it from Now Playing or MMA, etc.
My thoughts on the notes panels themselves were that they could be displayed in the right panel as album art and lyrics can be at the moment, which would make them available when the Main List was being displayed in the centre panel, my main mode of operation. To make that happen, "Artist Notes" and "Album Notes" would need to be added to the Available Elements under Options>Layout.

Unfortunately, having the data in MM5 isn't everything. I also need to be able to export it so that I can combine it with the track data that I can export via the File List command into an episode script. I can't see a means of exporting artist and album notes via the native menus - is there an addon which would do that?

And would I be able to import the artist and album notes as I can for tracks and playlists?

Thanks
Matt

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

by Barry4679 » Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:12 pm

Issue is being tracked here.

Re: Separate Tables for Artist and Album Data

by Barry4679 » Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:37 am

Hi Matt,

the MM5 database does have a repository for notes at both the whole Album and whole Artist levels.
It was more accessible in MM4. Up until about 10 minutes ago I thought that it had been abandoned in MM5 (because that was what I was told here).

But I have just noticed that this is not completely true.
Are you familiar with the Artist and Album detail panels that you see when you click on an album or artist name. See the red area here. (further instructions at the bottom of this post).

That panel contains artist, or album notes, which have been obtained from Wikipedia. If you click the three dot menu (see arrow in my illustration), you get an Edit Comment option. This allows you to append to, or replace, the notes obtained from Wikipedia ... and it saves the result into the MM database. From what I see, for this point forward the Wikipedia lookup, for the altered artist or album, is turned off, and you will see your own data. .. nb: you can see that have altered the notes by add "xxx" at the beginning.

Does this achieve what you want?
The problem is general accessibility to this data. It will always be available in the Artist and Album Detail panels. But you can't easily trigger it from Now Playing or MMA, etc.

There seems to one thing that doesn't work. When the album or artist finds no Wikipedia data, there doesn't seem to be a way to type in your own information. ... That can probably be improved. I will report it as a bug. .... IMO, (remembering that I am a "nobody"), there is much greater chance of getting that bug fixed, than there would getting them to agree to enhancement that you propose.

Hints: to get to the Album or Artist Detail panels, you access by clicking the name when it is display is high lite ... example here in the Grid menu. There are three different click action available
  1. the album art : this opens an inline window displaying the album tracks, or the Artist's albums
  2. the Artist name ... this shows the Artist Detail Panel
  3. the album name, this displays the album Detail panel
Same thing in the blue areas here.

[UPDATE] I didn't read your post until the end. I see that I didn't need to labour the point about the Album & artist Detail panels. :P

Separate Tables for Artist and Album Data

by MattTown » Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:03 am

Hi guys,

I saw something like this from a year ago but that didn't seem to get any traction, so I'd like to raise it again.

I'm making extensive use of the comment field and the available custom fields to store track-related data in the current track-centric database structure of MM5. But I'm running up against the limitations of MM5 in that I can't store a description of a music artist without replicating it to all of that artists tracks, and I can't store a description of an album without replicating it to all of the album's tracks.

At the moment I'm having to manage this beyond-track data outside of MM5 (in Excel) but that is a clunky process and seems to rob MM of a role that it is a natural for.

So, I'm looking for a capacity to have Artist and Album data stored in their own tables inside MM5 but linked to the tracks so that I can have the Artist data in one place and Album data in one place and don't have to do that inefficient, error-prone and downright nasty data replication.

The functionality I suggest would:
  • store data on Artist and Album (possibly others as well) in dedicated DB structures outside of the track/file structures
  • allow the linkage of Artist and Album entries to related track/file entries
  • allow manual assignment of a link between a group of selected tracks and an artist/album description via a right click context menu entry (user-initiated behaviour updating the automatic assignment) - such manual assignment would have to be protected against subsequent automatic assignment unless requested by the user
  • allow user-initiated automatic assignment of an artist or album linkage based on Artist and Album values in the track entry (automatic baseline behaviour) - An interface showing proposed actions like with auto organise would be useful to catch naming inconsistencies.
  • be able to accept direct text entry for Artist and Album data in a comment-like field or panel via typing or pasting (separate from the track comment field of course)
    <FOLLOWING ARE DESIRABLE IF COPYING DATA FROM SOURCES IS OK>
  • be able to ingest data from the Wikipedia and/or Musicbrainz sources that currently auto-populate the Artist node
  • have settings for the auto data intake along the lines of * always bring in new data, or * only bring in new data on-demand, or * never bring in new data, and * append imported data to existing data, or * overwrite existing data, or * never overwrite existing data
I assume that Artist would be more suitable for linkage than Album Artist - it is amenable to standardisation and doesn't get into difficulties such as Album Artist being given the "Various Artists" values for compilation albums. Given the variances of artist and album names, any such assignments would have to local to one MM5 database.

Access to the Artist and Album data could be enabled by having a pair of widgets that could, say, be configured to display in the right pane instead of the lyrics and album art panels. When the display was configured to show the Artist and Album description panels in the right pane, selecting a track in the centre pane would automatically display the linked artist and album data in the right pane. The artist and album data could be edited from those panels.

There would also need to be a related export function that could export this data like the existing File List report.

Cheers
Matt

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

by MattTown » Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:12 pm

Found this thread from searching for topics relating to storing Artist and Album data outside of tracks.

Yes I would like to have this sort of beyond-track data capability for music, which would:
  • store data on Artist and Album (possibly others as well) in dedicated DB structures outside of the track/file structures
  • be linked to related track/file entries (presumably a manual process)
  • be able to accept direct text entry in a comment-like field as typing or pasting (separate from the track comment field of course)
  • be able to ingest data from the Wikipedia and/or Musicbrainz sources that currently auto-populate the Artist node
  • have settings for the auto data intake along the lines of * always bring in new data, or * only bring in new data on-demand, or * never bring in new data, and * append imported data to existing data, or * overwrite existing data, or * never overwrite existing data
I'll look for a more current entry to add this to.

Cheers
Matt

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

by Archiv-Cowboy » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:19 pm

Lowlander wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:53 pm It has to do with consumer demand, and there simply isn't enough for it. An additional problem can be the tagging support or efficiency (some formats need to rewrite the entire file for a tag update) that further makes this less important for many users.
A lack of portability (it isn't file metadata, but person metadata) makes this request even more limited in use for many.

I would assume that Addons can do this, both in the sense of storing additional data in the database as well as making it available in the interface. There definitely would be others that be interested in using this.
Yes an addon would be enough. Problem enough I can't find something like that for MM4 so I doubt there will be some sort of this in the future for MM5. Thats why I have made a feature request. I haven't the skills to program an addon by myself.
An additional problem can be the tagging support or efficiency (some formats need to rewrite the entire file for a tag update)
To be clear. That's why I suggested a program-intern database. It is more easy to implement, because you can leave the files and the base functionality untouched. Especially this functionality is the cause why I like to use Media Monkey. More important: How I explained it has no use to attach the information about how old a actor is or when a publisher was established, to a single or all files with this actor/ publisher. It is only important that the entry of the actor (where you attach informations to) is interlinked with all filles, that have his name in his Actor-Value-field and this functionality is already given. So you can go from all files to the actors name (and vice versa) and can get the information only once in his properties, what would be enough for me.
A lack of portability (it isn't file metadata, but person metadata) makes this request even more limited in use for many.
I thinks it's only important, that you can export the complete intern database in a file, and relocate the file on other device, if you are forced to change your workstation. In the daily use (hearing Music on other devices like your smartphone or watchting videos) I don't think you often need additional information, so it would be a waste of time, to implement a synchronizing feature or make it able to transfer all the additional informations about persons with the files.

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

by Lowlander » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:53 pm

It has to do with consumer demand, and there simply isn't enough for it. An additional problem can be the tagging support or efficiency (some formats need to rewrite the entire file for a tag update) that further makes this less important for many users.
A lack of portability (it isn't file metadata, but person metadata) makes this request even more limited in use for many.

I would assume that Addons can do this, both in the sense of storing additional data in the database as well as making it available in the interface. There definitely would be others that be interested in using this.

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

by Archiv-Cowboy » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:44 pm

Yes frustrating is the right word, Because I don't know how to explain it any better. Peke seems helpfully, so I haven't assumed bad intentions.

On the other hand I honestly already searched for an other Media Manager (I give it up to find a program, that can handle pictures, too. There isn't any media all-around software) But its very difficult to find appropriate tools. The Google Search is a big mess, too, because if you search for Media Management Software, you get Social Media Stuff. If you typed in Music and Video, you get Music Player and Stuff.

And if you really find some advanced file Management Tools in most cases they have a lot of downs in the actual functionality. Video means most movies or episodes, not YT-Videos or private Stuff. So many of them only have a collection function with database uplink to IMDb without opportunities to scan files or give them on Data.

Other programs fully operate with a own database, that means the file metadata aren't read or edited by the program. And not all of these programs have a advanced database, that generates entries for Informations about Producers, Publishers, etc. I tried to combine a other tool with Media Monkeys functionality to mass edit file metadata, but the other tool don't use the files meta data, don't import the values or is able to edit them. That's bad because you fully bound to this programs. In the case of media monkey the files themselfes carry most of the metadata and they are readable by windows in the file properties, too, so they aren't lost.

It is one thing to have general Information about Acots, Producers, Interprets bound to a program-specific database, but it is a other thing, if you need this program on all devices, to work with your files or have double work to tag them properly, because you still need the files meta-data if you want to use file search or sorting by a simple media player.

I haven't find a good solution, yet. Media Monkey was still closest to what i want achieve, if they had a simple database structure with opportunity to create custom value fields for the producers, while the core-functionality handle the files and using the files metadata isn't touched.

It's ironic some way, that it is become fully common to handle and work with files, especially with media files private or on work, but there still isn't good software (free to us or for prices, that private customers can pay) or actual supported software. I'm archive and using many video clips and take care of noting sources, documenting release dates, links and having additional information about the content creator is important so. And it's the best to have it in one place, so I can easily switch the files and have all the information i need only one or two clicks away.

Frustrating indeed :-?
Barry4679 wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:58 pm
Archiv-Cowboy wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:16 pm I used MM5 the last months and you already have a sorting for actors, producers etc in the organizing tree. And you have already the function to right-click on (for example) an actor to give him a picture of your choice. so it seems there is already a function that has created an entry in some sort of backend database for the name, in the way you can attach informations, like a picture on it.
If you right click on the actors entry there is still another point in the context-menu. You have there "properties", too, like for a file, but in the moment it has no other use than opening property editing on all files with that actors name as value.

Why not open the properties of the selected Actor, Producer, Publisher, Interpret, etc. etc. in this way instead with the opportunity to add custom value-fields to them, so the user can decide, what information he want to add. This is what I suggested earlier.
The only meaningful conditions should be that the entries are stable (and not disappear if all files, that carry the actors name are disappear, what comments did in MM4) and backupable/ exportable on other devices.
Hi Archiv-Cowboy,

you must be feeling frustrated. The more you write (and clearly btw) explain your request, the less they seem to want to understand what you are asking.

I think that the truth is that they have nothing that they can offer you atm.

The only "media" that the MediaMonkey database recognises as 1st class citizens is music tracks, and also video items in a limited sense.

For this 1st release of MM5, the database has not changed from what was in the MM4 database.
Your videos are added into the "Songs" table in the database. They have added a few video-specific columns to a "song" ; eg. Actor, Director, EpisideNumber, etc.

You can add custom columns at the individual video (aka Song) detail level, using the existing Customxx columns, like Peke is describing.

But MM5 has gone backwards in the area of the group columns that you are interested in,eg. at the Actor and Producer, etc levels ... ie. things or people that are involved in a group of songs|movies|episodes. They have quietly dropped support for custom notes at group levels, like artist (aka Actor) and album (aka television Series) levels, as you have discovered. ... This is a really surprising (un)development, because it makes MM less of a "media" database IMO.

Maybe they can be convinced to add custom group columns to MM in a later version. Peke says he has created an internal topic, but we can't be sure because we even though he posted you a link for some reason, we cannot read what he has written, and it is not clear that he understands what you are saying. ... and unless I am mistaken, someone appears to have deleted a comment that I made in this thread that referring to that dead link, which calls into question their intentions here.

In the meantime you would be better looking for another app ie a real "media" database ... if one does exist. I would guess that one does exist. There used to be CatVids, but although he is still supporting his app, he is no longer selling new licences.

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

by Barry4679 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:58 pm

Archiv-Cowboy wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:16 pm I used MM5 the last months and you already have a sorting for actors, producers etc in the organizing tree. And you have already the function to right-click on (for example) an actor to give him a picture of your choice. so it seems there is already a function that has created an entry in some sort of backend database for the name, in the way you can attach informations, like a picture on it.
If you right click on the actors entry there is still another point in the context-menu. You have there "properties", too, like for a file, but in the moment it has no other use than opening property editing on all files with that actors name as value.

Why not open the properties of the selected Actor, Producer, Publisher, Interpret, etc. etc. in this way instead with the opportunity to add custom value-fields to them, so the user can decide, what information he want to add. This is what I suggested earlier.
The only meaningful conditions should be that the entries are stable (and not disappear if all files, that carry the actors name are disappear, what comments did in MM4) and backupable/ exportable on other devices.
Hi Archiv-Cowboy,

you must be feeling frustrated. The more you write (and clearly btw) explain your request, the less they seem to want to understand what you are asking.

I think that the truth is that they have nothing that they can offer you atm.

The only "media" that the MediaMonkey database recognises as 1st class citizens is music tracks, and also video items in a limited sense.

For this 1st release of MM5, the database has not changed from what was in the MM4 database.
Your videos are added into the "Songs" table in the database. They have added a few video-specific columns to a "song" ; eg. Actor, Director, EpisideNumber, etc.

You can add custom columns at the individual video (aka Song) detail level, using the existing Customxx columns, like Peke is describing.

But MM5 has gone backwards in the area of the group columns that you are interested in,eg. at the Actor and Producer, etc levels ... ie. things or people that are involved in a group of songs|movies|episodes. They have quietly dropped support for custom notes at group levels, like artist (aka Actor) and album (aka television Series) levels, as you have discovered. ... This is a really surprising (un)development, because it makes MM less of a "media" database IMO.

Maybe they can be convinced to add custom group columns to MM in a later version. Peke says he has created an internal topic, but we can't be sure because we even though he posted you a link for some reason, we cannot read what he has written, and it is not clear that he understands what you are saying. ... and unless I am mistaken, someone appears to have deleted a comment that I made in this thread that referring to that dead link, which calls into question their intentions here.

In the meantime you would be better looking for another app ie a real "media" database ... if one does exist. I would guess that one does exist. There used to be CatVids, but although he is still supporting his app, he is no longer selling new licences.

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

by Archiv-Cowboy » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:16 pm

Peke wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:29 pm For My DJ stuff I use custom field "Energy level".
yeah that's a nice idea, but this is a property of the file itself, bu it isn't YOUR Energylevel as creator ^^ it is the characteristics of the producers that i would like to include in the program.

I want to refresh your memory a little bit. :)

In the past I already explained, that the custom tags aren't, what i'm talking about, because the information I want to add aren't properties of the file (track or video), but of the actors or producers or publishers, that are already attached to the files properties. It doesn't makes sense to add a Tag like "Age (Nicholas Cage)" "Age (Brian Lieberman)" "Age (Nancy Dunham)" to a movie-file where I added in the actors field Nicholas Cage, Brian Lieberman and Nancy Dunham. It makes less sense to add Nicholas Cages Age Tag to all Nick Cage Movies.

But it would make perfectly sense to add this information seperately to own Entries for Nick, Brian and Nancy.

I used MM5 the last months and you already have a sorting for actors, producers etc in the organizing tree. And you have already the function to right-click on (for example) an actor to give him a picture of your choice. so it seems there is already a function that has created an entry in some sort of backend database for the name, in the way you can attach informations, like a picture on it.
If you right click on the actors entry there is still another point in the context-menu. You have there "properties", too, like for a file, but in the moment it has no other use than opening property editing on all files with that actors name as value.

Why not open the properties of the selected Actor, Producer, Publisher, Interpret, etc. etc. in this way instead with the opportunity to add custom value-fields to them, so the user can decide, what information he want to add. This is what I suggested earlier.
The only meaningful conditions should be that the entries are stable (and not disappear if all files, that carry the actors name are disappear, what comments did in MM4) and backupable/ exportable on other devices.

I hope you now remember the issue :)

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

by Peke » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:29 pm

Hi,
In each track properties Under Custom Tab you can literally add new new tag field and save it with file.

For My DJ stuff I use custom field "Energy level".

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc. [#16613]

by Archiv-Cowboy » Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:53 pm

I want to ask if you've already discussed my proposal.

It's one thing that I would still very much like to see on the program.

I am currently saving the additional information in text files in the folders. Unfortunately, this is not particularly efficient and also not really useful.

Re: FR: Intern customizable Database for Actors, Producer, Publisher, etc.

by Archiv-Cowboy » Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:24 am

Peke wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 11:01 am It is somewhat clear what you want to archive. I created https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=16613 for internal specs before we publish it.

As even it was available in MM4 it was not very useful because you could see it only in one place and by third party plugins that we were not aware of.
First thanks for that.

Yes it wasn't very useful. Primarly for me: It was only a text-field and that's it (that's why I suggested a database) and it was unstable (the commentary you could add, would be deleted, if all files that responded to an actor get deleted from the archive). That you have only access from the file tree wasn't the greatest problem for me, because it was possible to search for a name, but clearly, if you have stable entries in intern databases for actors, that are generated from the names in the files meta-data there were the possibility to Hyperlink it in the UI to the database-entry.

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