clutter in Folders node? [#17314]

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Expand view Topic review: clutter in Folders node? [#17314]

Re: clutter in Folders node? [#17314]

by Barry4679 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:55 pm

Lowlander wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:33 pm The Media Tree is essential for my use, without it MediaMonkey wouldn't be of much use to me.
That is a cheap Straw man argument. Nobody is suggesting that it should be taken from you.
  • the MM5 Media Tree has been deprecated by default for navigation ... ie. by default, all of the sub-nodes have been removed
  • the given reason was because a great long scrolling list is a poor navigation tool
  • the default may be overridden ... I am not arguing about any of this
  • the other MM5 Media Tree change is to duplicate the presence of the Media Servers in the Media Tree (!?)
    • and this is counter to their original design principle ... because it bloats the Media Tree, especially in a household using many smart speakers
Lowlander wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:33 pm You may not like or see value in the reasons given, but that doesn't mean they're not reasons.
Maybe I missed it, but AFAICT you have given zero reasons why the Media Servers are now duplicated in the Media Tree.
You said it was the same in Windows File Explorer ... which is untrue as per my previous diagram.

I admit is no major deal, but this helps nobody ... not MM5, not us customers, and not people trying to assist customers ... My NAS appears in the Folders node twice
  • one node contains my folders, as expected
  • and the other node, with the same name, does nothing useful .. if I open it, it does not navigate down into my folders ==> confusion
  • and the other Media Servers add no value in the Folders node either ... that are just confusing clutter here.. they are already listed in the Devices&Services node , which is where they belong

    Re: clutter in Folders node? [#17314]

    by Lowlander » Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:33 pm

    The Media Tree is essential for my use, without it MediaMonkey wouldn't be of much use to me.

    You may not like or see value in the reasons given, but that doesn't mean they're not reasons.

    Re: clutter in Folders node? [#17314]

    by Barry4679 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:16 am

    Lowlander wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:10 pm Different users use MediaMonkey differently. This why many things in MediaMonkey can be done multiple ways.
    OK, then maybe one of these "different" users will post a list of whatever folder-like activities they wish to perform against Media Servers, because it is clear that neither your nor I can come up with any.

    Thanks for interacting, but if we are now down to just statements of dogma it seems pointless to continue with this one.

    It is very ironic that the original design of MM5 deprecated the Media Tree because it was such a horrible navigation tool ... and now they have relented, by returning all the sub-nodes that they had initially pruned away, and at the same time they make the Media Tree even more bloated than it was in MM4. :roll:

    Re: clutter in Folders node? [#17314]

    by Lowlander » Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:10 pm

    Different users use MediaMonkey differently. This why many things in MediaMonkey can be done multiple ways.

    Re: clutter in Folders node? [#17314]

    by Barry4679 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:06 pm

    Lowlander wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:06 am
    Barry4679 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:21 am Is there any Use Case for listing all the Media Servers in the Folders node? I cannot think of one.
    Folders follows File Explorer which also lists the Media Servers.
    Look at the Filer Explorer ... it is as MM5 should be ... separation, with no duplication:
    • in the File Explorer the Tree is not polluted with the Media Servers ... because these are not folders
    • the File Explorer's main panel does show Media Servers (once) but the are separated, just as they should be in MM5 for clarity
    Despite asking the question three times, nobody has answered showing what Folder-like thing that they do in MM5 with Media Servers? ... why do they bloat the tree by appearing twice; once in their own section, and then needlessly repeated in the Folders node ... becoming a mess in a household that has smart speakers in multiple rooms

    Re: clutter in Folders node? [#17314]

    by Lowlander » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:06 am

    Barry4679 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:21 am Is there any Use Case for listing all the Media Servers in the Folders node? I cannot think of one.
    Folders follows File Explorer which also lists the Media Servers.

    Re: clutter in Folders node? [#17314]

    by Barry4679 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:21 am

    Barry4679 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:31 pm Is there any Use Case for listing all the Media Servers in the Folders node? I cannot think of one.
    This is my main point, from my original, and my last, post.
    Is there a response to that? It wasn't addressed in the Mantis discussion. I don't seem have communicated the question to you well either.

    Peke wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:58 pm In your MM4 pictures you do not have Media Servers Tree Node enabled :) For me both 1 and 3 show there.
    In my original image, in MM5 I opened both nodes to show the pointless and confusing duplication within MM5.

    And In the MM4 part, I only opened the MyComputer node, as a direct comparison to its equivalent in MM5 (Folders), to demonstrate that in this case MM5 is needlessly bloated (ie. roughly 3 times a big, as shown by the double headed arrows).

    I redid the diagram to focus on my main point. This new image shows both nodes open in both versions of MM. ... My NAS appears in each node just once; it is in the D&S node because it is running a Media Server, and it is in teh Folders node because it contains folders. ... The point is that the Media Servers are not helpful in the Folders node.

    If there is a "Media Servers Tree Node enabled" setting, why wasn't it imported from MM4 for me? ... And where do I find it in MM5 properties, if I want to exclude Media Servers from the Folders node?

    Peke wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:58 pm Well, we will be better in numbers and some things will be added and some don't if we get voted out. That is why revisions are made for and feedback is requested.
    I don't understand.

    Re: clutter in Folders node? [#17314]

    by Peke » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:58 pm

    Hi,
    In your MM4 pictures you do not have Media Servers Tree Node enabled :) For me both 1 and 3 show there.

    Well, we will be better in numbers and some things will be added and some don't if we get voted out. That is why revisions are made for and feedback is requested.

    Re: 2291 - clutter in Folders node?

    by Barry4679 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:41 pm

    Peke wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:05 pm Added as https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=17314
    I see in your Mantis report that the request has been rejected. I can't read the reasoning because the quoted reference is locked.

    The discussion in the report was only about whether the Media Servers should be within a closable node ... my suggestion was that they should be excluded from the Folders node.

    Reasons:
    • their presence in the Folders node is a duplication ... they are already listed in the Devices & Services node
    • they are not a "folder" ... they are just reflections of folders ... so their inclusion in the Folders node is a further duplication to the duplication mentioned in the above point ... ie. they are effectively in the folders node twice ... ie. the actual folder, and then its Media Server reflection
    • there seems to nothing that we can do with them in the Folders node:
      • what is the purpose the folder node?
        • create folders
        • and copy|move folders or tracks
        • and delete folders or tracks
        • anything else?
      • we can't do any of that with Media Servers can we? .... if this is true, why are they there at all?

    Re: 2291 - clutter in Folders node?

    by Barry4679 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:37 pm

    Peke wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:05 pmLet us know what you think of that idea in the bug?
    The Mantis report covers my point, thanks.
    I can see the utility in having Media Servers in D&S node ... although I wish that I could hide the 11 Media Servers from my Sonos units, because there is no value add by having them there as clutter.

    But the main point is there does not seem to be point at all having them in the Folders Node, and as you point out this did not happen in MM4 (MyComputer node)

    Re: 2291 - clutter in Folders node?

    by Peke » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:05 pm

    Hi,
    Added as https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=17314

    NOTE: Those are list of MediaServers and Renderers available to MM. Let us know what you think of that idea in the bug?

    clutter in Folders node? [#17314]

    by Barry4679 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:31 pm

    Is there any Use Case for listing all the Media Servers in the Folders node? I cannot think of one.

    The node gets very bloated with the various TVs and smart players attached to the network ... It has multiple entries for a NAS; the folders, and then also any Media Server running on the NAS.

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