List View is unfiltered

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dmcritchie
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Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:02 am

List View is unfiltered

Post by dmcritchie » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:57 pm

Hi,

New MM5 user, so this may have been answered already, but I could not find it.

If I display (under Music) Artists, Album Artists, Albums, or Composers, then when I switch from Art View to either List View or Album & Tracks View, I get a complete list of all tracks (not sure in what sort order) instead of a list of Artists, etc.

Not sure if this is a bug, or that I just don't know how to configure MM5.

Can you help?

Thanks,
Dennis

Barry4679
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Re: List View is unfiltered

Post by Barry4679 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:06 am

dmcritchie wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:57 pm
If I display (under Music) Artists, Album Artists, Albums, or Composers, then when I switch from Art View to either List View or Album & Tracks View, I get a complete list of all tracks (not sure in what sort order) instead of a list of Artists, etc.
Hi Dennis,

you can apply your own filters to what is displayed.... but let's ignore that for the moment, and look just at how MM5 filters first

Filtering is initially done at the top level node level in the Media Tree. ... Look at my illustration here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dqjikpjz20q0l ... s.png?dl=0

The Media Tree is on the left. You can see a bunch of top level nodes:
  • Entire Library
  • Music (which is opened to show its 2nd level nodes, all nodes have these 2nd level nodes)
  • Classical Music
  • Added 3 Months
  • and Added 3 months before
The 1st three mentioned are standard MM nodes ... The last 2 are nodes ("collections" in MM-speak) that I defined myself.

The "Music" node filters to just non-classical music (I don't know why classical music is not "music" ... you need to ask them :) ).

So when you open the "Music" node it has filtered out any classical music tracks, and any podcasts, and audio books, and video, etc

The 2nd level nodes are just default ways of displaying, or summarising, tracks ... not extra level of filters ... Albums summarise the display by album, Artists summarise by artist, etc

The display for any specific top_node/secondary_node has 3 "view" options ... when you were in Music|Albums, the default "view: mode was Art View (aka Grid view everywhere else btw) ... that displays cover art for all tracks which pass the "Music" filter .. when you change to "list" view ... you now see all the same tracks that were represented in Art View, but see the track details this time ... same thing with "Album&Tracks view, this time you see the tracks clumped into album groups

The sort sequence can be displayed by hovering over the column heading bar, when not in Art|Grid view .... you can change sort sequence by clicking on the primary sort column that you want, and then ctrl+clicking any secondary sort columns.

Dynamic filtering is also available in any view.

eg. while you are in Music|Albums, and are in Art mode, just click some blank space in the grid, and then type something ... a sort entry field will be opened up in the tool bar, and what you type will be displayed there ... in the illustration below I typed moon ... it has dynamically filtered to just show any album that has the characters "moon" starting any word in album or album artist tags Or I then changed to Album&Tracks mode, and did the same thing ... this time you see a lot more albums represented, because it is also picking up tracks with "moon" starting some word in the track level properties
https://www.dropbox.com/s/anuvlthsg88g1 ... s.png?dl=0

There is a lot more refinement and complexity to MM5 searching, and filtering, and scrolling ... but that is the basics

dmcritchie
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:02 am

Re: List View is unfiltered

Post by dmcritchie » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:27 pm

Thanks Barry. Very clear.

>when you change to "list" view ... you now see all the same tracks that were represented in Art View, but see the track details this time ... same thing with "Album&Tracks view, this time you see the tracks clumped into album groups

I think what confused me here is that MM5 does not behave like MM4 with regard to list view behavior. In MM4, the Artist menu item shows a listing of tracks sorted by Artist; Album Artist menu item list is sorted by Album Artist; and Album menu item list is sorted by Album; as you would expect.

In MM5 in List View, all 3 menu items display a list sorted by the same column. If I sort the Artist list by Artist, and then switch to Album, my Album list is now sorted by Artist. So the listings are identical. If I change the Album list to be sorted by Album (by clicking on the column header), and then switch to the Artist menu item, its display is now sorted by Album.

BTW, this only applies to the List View and the Album & Tracks View. The Art/Grid View has a different sort order for each menu item selected, and thus works as I would expect.

So the column sort choice seems to be global for the two other views. Seems like a bug, no?

Thanks,
Dennis

Barry4679
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Re: List View is unfiltered

Post by Barry4679 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:01 am

dmcritchie wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:27 pm
So the column sort choice seems to be global for the two other views. Seems like a bug, no?
Well, it is not quite "global", because each top level node has its row sort own setting. But there does seem to be just a single row sort setting for each top level node, when using List or Album&Tracks view modes. ... which is different to MM4, I agree.

I'm not sure whether it is a bug or a design feature. ... ie. in MM4, the separate sort memories in each 2nd-level node could get messy ... eg. you could change the sort seq of the Details view of album node, from album to track, and it would remember that ... this is a good thing, ie. I don't want to have to use the Media Tree, all the time, to change my sort sequence, and I do want to be able define multi-tag sort sequences ... but each 2nd-level node having its own user-set sort seq could get fairly messy ... and maybe a node-global setting is better?

Maybe MM5 2nd-level nodes only relate to the Grid|Art views, and the List and Album&tracks views are not really part of the 2nd-level node. These views are global to the top level node ... In this case the breadcrumbs in the tool bar are a bit confusing ... ie. you were in Music>Album .. then when you switch to List view, and it is really like you were at Music>AllTracks, but the bread crumbs don't change.

If it is a "design feature", it has some problems. In MM4 the 2nd-level nodes had at least two purposes; they each had their own sub-nodes (ie. you could open Music>Artist to see a Media Tree sub-node for each artist), and, as you say, each 2-level node kept memory of its own row display sequence

In MM5 (vanilla), 2nd-level nodes have no sub-nodes, and no sort memory of their own either. ... so no purpose, that I can see, other than they each have a tailored grid|art view, which provides a kind of "home" view with summarisation and display settings that are appropriate to the 2nd-level node's index, as well as tailoring contextual search behaviour for that "home screen (eg, when I typed "moon" into the Album mode in my earlier example, I just filtered using album level tags).

If that is the only remaining purpose for MM5 2nd-level nodes, then this should not happen:
  • open a Album 2nd-level node
  • and switch to its List view, and sort the display by track
  • then later I switch to another 2nd level node, eg Artist ... and browse just using the artist "home" screen
  • and then later I click on the Album 2nd level node ... and I get switched to a track list, sorted by track (??)... so in what sense is this Album related?
ie. when I switched backed to Album 2nd-level node, I should also have been switched back to Grid view.

As you can probably deduce, I haven't yet decided whether I like this new MM5 feature|bug.

Ludek
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Re: List View is unfiltered

Post by Ludek » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:46 am

I'm not sure whether it is a bug or a design feature
Yes, it was a design feature in MM5 (related to https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=14659 and similar )
But upon discussion (about this topic) with other devs we are planning a script (addon) that would bring back the "MM4 like sort columns behaviour" for the users prefering the old approach.

To be implemented as https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=15724

dmcritchie
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Re: List View is unfiltered

Post by dmcritchie » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:02 pm

Thanks Ludek. It's much appreciated. As you may be able to tell, I am not a fan of changing interfaces. :-)

I am also a "list view" guy. I like to see as much information on my screen as my big monitor and small fonts can show me.

That said, I very much like the fact that when I view an individual artist or album in MM5's Tracklist View, I get info about the artists or album above the track list.

I would also like to make another suggestion that would be helpful to those long-time MM4 users who would prefer to adapt to the new MM5 interface slowly if at all: Instead of having to spend hours (as I did) finding out about the Show All Nodes extension, and the new location of the Views icon (instead of as an option under the View menu), and now an addon to preserve local sorting of columns in list view, I would suggest having something like a Tools|Options|General option to support an MM4 compatibility mode.

This is a major upgrade that has a lot to offer; but it might be best not to frustrate (and possibly turn off) that portion of your MM4 users that are happy with the current interface.

Dennis

Ludek
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Re: List View is unfiltered

Post by Ludek » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:41 pm

Hi, originally the 'showAllNodes' extension was pre-installed, but then it was decided to not make it pre-installed, details here: https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view ... 962#c48932

However, it's very important that users who do want this be able to install the functionality easily as per
https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=14042

So #14042 is the TODO, I added a comment with the link to this topic.

dmcritchie
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Re: List View is unfiltered

Post by dmcritchie » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:02 pm

Thanks Ludek.

I tried to view issue 14042, but it tells me that access is denied. I can see other issues.

Can 14042 be made public?

Thanks,
Dennis

Peke
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Re: List View is unfiltered

Post by Peke » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:33 pm

Hi,
I removed Devs Only from bug.
Best regards,
Pavle
MediaMonkey Team lead QA/Tech Support guru
Admin of Free MediaMonkey addon Site HappyMonkeying
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dmcritchie
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Re: List View is unfiltered

Post by dmcritchie » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:58 pm

Thanks Pavle.

Well, re 14042, I prefer your suggestion of having MM4 compatibility features available as either advanced installation options, or (my previous suggestion) as a general MM4 compatibility option.

I think Rusty's suggestion of improving the extensions dialog is a good one, but not as a solution for a new MM5 user trying to figure out how to do what they used to do with MM4. This puts the onus on the user to check the extensions section, whereas I think you want the user's first impression of MM5 to be wholly positive. And that means any adjustments have to be obvious and easy.

I sympathize guys. I'm a retired professional developer myself, and yes, it's always a pain when you have these great ideas to improve a product and your best customers shout "No! Don't change anything!". Over the years, I have found that the trick is to rarely remove any features (in a popular product there is ALWAYS someone that is using EVERY darn feature), and to add features without adding to the complexity of using the product (at least not in a significant way). And of course, backward compatibility is king!

And I really appreciate that you guys are always listening and so helpful.

Dennis

Peke
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Re: List View is unfiltered

Post by Peke » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:21 pm

Hi,
dmcritchie wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:58 pm
I sympathize guys. I'm a retired professional developer myself, and yes, it's always a pain when you have these great ideas to improve a product and your best customers shout "No! Don't change anything!". Over the years, I have found that the trick is to rarely remove any features (in a popular product there is ALWAYS someone that is using EVERY darn feature), and to add features without adding to the complexity of using the product (at least not in a significant way). And of course, backward compatibility is king!
Thank you for understanding, you really know then constructive feedback is key on every major change on a app crossroads. I know I repeat but it is hard to MM5 too live up to 15+ years of stable app and also innovate and predict things for next couple of years. It was so simpler back then.
dmcritchie wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:58 pm
Well, re 14042, I prefer your suggestion of having MM4 compatibility features available as either advanced installation options, or (my previous suggestion) as a general MM4 compatibility option.
I fear that General MM4 compatibility mode would imply more issues than fixes, clear and easy install access to what each sample script do in order to make transitions to MM5 easier is the point eg. new users will have new experience and old users will have easy transition. How about Presets during installations that would install several Compatibility plugins and UI settings to sort of make MM5 more look like MM4?
dmcritchie wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:58 pm
I think Rusty's suggestion of improving the extensions dialog is a good one, but not as a solution for a new MM5 user trying to figure out how to do what they used to do with MM4. This puts the onus on the user to check the extensions section, whereas I think you want the user's first impression of MM5 to be wholly positive. And that means any adjustments have to be obvious and easy.
There is many other bugs/features on our to do where we try to make things accessible easier and extensions dialog and handling is very high on the list.
dmcritchie wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:58 pm
And I really appreciate that you guys are always listening and so helpful.
That is the "problem" with MediaMonkey, whole team one way or another are first avid MediaMonkey Users and then devs for thing we use and enjoy to use.
Best regards,
Pavle
MediaMonkey Team lead QA/Tech Support guru
Admin of Free MediaMonkey addon Site HappyMonkeying
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dmcritchie
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Re: List View is unfiltered

Post by dmcritchie » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:49 pm

new users will have new experience and old users will have easy transition.
Makes sense to me.
How about Presets during installations that would install several Compatibility plugins and UI settings to sort of make MM5 more look like MM4?
I like that idea. If it helps prevent frustration when old users meet MM5 for the first time, I think it is a good thing.

Dennis

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