2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4? [#17229]

Help improve MediaMonkey 5 by testing the latest pre-release builds, and reporting bugs and feature requests.

Moderator: Gurus

Barry4679
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4? [#17229]

Post by Barry4679 »

I think that Installation of MM5 closed down MM4. If this is the case it did this without seeking permission.

Is this behaviour intended or necessary?
Want a dark skin for MM5? This is the one that works best for me .. elegant, compact & clear.
Lowlander
Posts: 54224
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:53 pm
Location: MediaMonkey 5

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by Lowlander »

Its done that for a long time now.

https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=17229
Barry4679
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by Barry4679 »

Lowlander wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:37 am Its done that for a long time now.
I know, but why?
I don't think that it used to. I didn't report earlier because I wasn't sure whether I was imagining that I had MM4 running.

I they need to do it, they need to ask permission ... pretty much the convention isn't it?
Want a dark skin for MM5? This is the one that works best for me .. elegant, compact & clear.
Peke
Posts: 16221
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:21 am
Location: Serbia
Contact:

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by Peke »

Hi,
Main reason for closing any existing MM4/MM5 instance is because of security of SQLite DB due the fact it do not behave correctly during imports as to be 100% sure DB needs to be locked/inaccessible for other processes (even copy is only done) to ensure Integrity of DB.

Re warning: there could be a warning but it needs to be issues by MM4 not MM5 and for 10+ years there is an option to command MM to kill its process, this is first time anyone point that there is a need for permission. eg. if you click on YES to import MM4 you certainly agree that you do not want started MM4 to interfere import process?
Best regards,
Peke
MediaMonkey Team lead QA/Tech Support guru
Admin of Free MediaMonkey addon Site HappyMonkeying
Image
Image
Image
How to attach PICTURE/SCREENSHOTS to forum postr
Barry4679
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by Barry4679 »

Peke wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:40 am Re warning: there could be a warning but it needs to be issues by MM4 not MM5
That's not true.
When McAfee antivirus wants to remove temp files, and nosey trackers, produced by an Internet Browser, it (McAfee) pauses, and asks me to close Chrome Browser, or whatever Browser that it see that I have open.

If I say yes. it them does the cleaning.
If I say no, it skips the cleaning step.
I am in control.

MM should do the same.
Maybe I am listening to something with MM4, and didn't realise that an install of MM5 was going screw that up.
Maybe MM4 is doing a batch process for me.
How would you know? You should leave me in charge.

This is why people hate Microsoft. ... ie. reboots without seeking permission.


Peke wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:40 am eg. if you click on YES to import MM4 you certainly agree that you do not want started MM4 to interfere import process?
I don't think that you can make that assumption.
BTW listening to music doesn't update the database in any way that would interfere with the importation.
You could post a semaphore to lock the database during the importation.
But all you really need do is ask the user to close MM4, and pause until they do so. ... and if they decline, then open MM5 without importation from MM4.
Want a dark skin for MM5? This is the one that works best for me .. elegant, compact & clear.
Peke
Posts: 16221
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:21 am
Location: Serbia
Contact:

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by Peke »

Hi,
Barry4679 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:54 am BTW listening to music doesn't update the database in any way that would interfere with the importation.
That is not true, Play counter and Last played is updated during playback, Auto lookup of Album Art, lyrics if enabled also update DB so if i want to import MM4 DB it needs to cease any action and close, MM5 install takes <1m so I guess you can spare that time not listening the music. And I certainly would like that my imported data is accurate.
Best regards,
Peke
MediaMonkey Team lead QA/Tech Support guru
Admin of Free MediaMonkey addon Site HappyMonkeying
Image
Image
Image
How to attach PICTURE/SCREENSHOTS to forum postr
Lowlander
Posts: 54224
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:53 pm
Location: MediaMonkey 5

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by Lowlander »

The amount of users running multiple versions of MediaMonkey is limited. It happens to me on a regular bases, but most users would only have 1 install of MediaMonkey. The database import is a reason I can live with.
Barry4679
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by Barry4679 »

Lowlander wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:20 pm The amount of users running multiple versions of MediaMonkey is limited. It happens to me on a regular bases, but most users would only have 1 install of MediaMonkey. The database import is a reason I can live with.
Yes, I could live with it too ... just like I could live with just a single kidney, or no night vision, or any other suboptimal shortcoming ... things that should have been the gifts from evolution and a process of continuous improvement.

The current behaviour may be acceptable on a single task platform like a phone, but not from a commercial application, on a multiprocessing platform like a PC IMO.

There may be other PC applications which pre-emptively shutdown some different application ... an app which may be actively processing a task in the background for the user ... but I doubt it.

So yes, I could live with it ... but not if I was the Developer.

And I do acknowledge that the MM installer starts with the widely ignored boiler plate message recommending that all other applications be ended before proceeding ... but who has read or done that, since some time back in mid 1990?
Want a dark skin for MM5? This is the one that works best for me .. elegant, compact & clear.
Peke
Posts: 16221
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:21 am
Location: Serbia
Contact:

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by Peke »

Barry4679 wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:07 am And I do acknowledge that the MM installer starts with the widely ignored boiler plate message recommending that all other applications be ended before proceeding ... but who has read or done that, since some time back in mid 1990?
Actually I started to read that recently (past few years) as telemetry and phoning home is common practice these days, so if wire shark finds something not on EULA or clearly stated I then decide on three approaches. Uninstall, report, go with it.
Best regards,
Peke
MediaMonkey Team lead QA/Tech Support guru
Admin of Free MediaMonkey addon Site HappyMonkeying
Image
Image
Image
How to attach PICTURE/SCREENSHOTS to forum postr
Barry4679
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by Barry4679 »

Peke wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:26 am Actually I started to read that recently (past few years) as telemetry and phoning home is common practice these days, so if wire shark finds something not on EULA or clearly stated I then decide on three approaches. Uninstall, report, go with it.
I always enjoy your posts Peke.
Even the ones I don't understand, like that one :D
I think that you just said that you personally read all EULA's ... I am not surprised, but we can't all be Tech Support "Gurus". can we? :)

I thought of a compromise regarding this issue that you & Lowlander obviously have no enthusiasm for.
The existing dbox question, which asks something like "Do you want to import data & setting from MM4?", could have a 2nd paragraph that says something like "If you answer Yes, MediaMonkey will be closed if it is running. This is ensure a consistent copy is imported into MediaMonkey 5."

I still think it is better that you ask the user to close MM4 if it is found to running, but the above suggestion works also.
Want a dark skin for MM5? This is the one that works best for me .. elegant, compact & clear.
Barry4679
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by Barry4679 »

The longer one looks at this, the more screwed up it gets.

I installed a version of MM4 yesterday as part of your request in another thread.
Unlike MM5. MM4 actually issues the dbox that I have been requesting for MM5.

"Please close all instances, then click OK to continue, or Cancel to Exit"
Sounds perfect ... except for one small detail ... just before you display the message it looks like you force close MM4, killing off whatever it may have been doing.
Want a dark skin for MM5? This is the one that works best for me .. elegant, compact & clear.
drakinite
Posts: 910
Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by drakinite »

That is true, I think the MM5 installer closes MM instances in the background without any prompt. I have thought about suggesting a change, but I really don't believe that it's a problem.
Image
Student electrical-computer engineer, web programmer, part-time MediaMonkey developer, full-time MediaMonkey enthusiast
Barry4679
Posts: 2207
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by Barry4679 »

Hi drakinite, but we know that your definition of a problem is just slightly wacky :D
drakinite wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:42 pm And then, I made a very small tweak to the radio buttons. They are slightly off center, which was mildly irritating enough to fix it. :P
Image
But I jest ... back to the point, I don't think that it this killing MM4 issue is a "problem" either, but it is:
  • not following what appears to be a good citizen convention
  • unexpected
  • presumptuous ... to the point of "mild irritation"
  • and in the case of MM4 it would be laughable, it it wasn't so sadly stupid ... ie. force killing MM4, and then issuing a dbox saying that MM4 is running, and asking the user to close it ... requiring a Yes|no answer
Peke said that it has been like this for 10+ years ... time to put it on the TODO list IMO

In he meantime I still think that the following very tiny workaround is warranted for this very tiny issue.
Barry4679 wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:42 pm I thought of a compromise regarding this issue that you & Lowlander obviously have no enthusiasm for.
The existing dbox question, which asks something like "Do you want to import data & setting from MM4?", could have a 2nd paragraph that says something like "If you answer Yes, MediaMonkey will be closed if it is running. This is ensure a consistent copy is imported into MediaMonkey 5."
Want a dark skin for MM5? This is the one that works best for me .. elegant, compact & clear.
drakinite
Posts: 910
Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by drakinite »

Barry4679 wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:04 am Hi drakinite, but we know that your definition of a problem is just slightly wacky :D
drakinite wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:42 pm And then, I made a very small tweak to the radio buttons. They are slightly off center, which was mildly irritating enough to fix it. :P
Image
Point taken. :P

And yes, I noticed that issue with the prompt in the most recent build and you're right. I'll put it on Mantis in a little bit.
Image
Student electrical-computer engineer, web programmer, part-time MediaMonkey developer, full-time MediaMonkey enthusiast
Ludek
Posts: 4742
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:00 pm

Re: 2281 - installation of MM5 closes down MM4?

Post by Ludek »

drakinite wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:17 pm And yes, I noticed that issue with the prompt in the most recent build and you're right. I'll put it on Mantis in a little bit.
It's been already added https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=17229
Post Reply