Why Songbird will succeed where MM fails

[Peke]

@Sirandar888
First I would like to thank you for refreshing and well written post. It shows true nature of MM and it definitely put us devs into thinking. It is always great to read posts like yours, as it fills you with energy knowing that users actually care about your work.

So let me answer few of your suggestions:

1. Same association with amazon can be made by anyone as MM only uses Amazon Search API

2. New Skinning engine has been introduced with MM 3.0 and it is still in developing, specialized MediaMonkey Theme Editor is something that we thinking about for some time now. For scripting there is http://trixmoto.net/mmvbs/ as help

3. I wonder, would be toolbar button or even whole toolbar dedicated to filter switching be more user friendlier?

4 & 5. I must agree with DaleDeSilva and Trixmoto regarding Feature priorities.

6. Never got that issue. Is that with Docked or undocked Now Playing

7. Tricky feature especially due the lots of standards. Most if that features can be easily added thrum scripting even full file sharing. Personally as an DJ (mostly ex-DJ) I would really like to see more of this kind of features. If you ask me you will see more of that in future MM releases (I'm currently able to make streaming Radio with Player control by using several plugins which unfortunately introduce delays), but this is one of things that MediaMonkey should have and Support.

8. Smart crossfading is something like 7. I would really like to see working. I'm imagine this more like SQR crossfader plugin but with better control tied to library for Playback Automatization which one of improvements MM could put in use.

Thank you again for your objective post.

BTW you really thing that Topic title is true (especially as MediaMonkey is stable product with stable community and Songbird is Free for propositions)?

[Lemmy Caution]

I'm new to Media Monkey.

Songbird is a long way off from catching up to it on the following features:

1. Device support: I just got a G1 Android device. Songbird doesn't do USB Mass Storage devices. Yes, that's a massive deficit.

2. Sync intelligence: MM is way ahead, from managing podcasts to managing sync of playlists.

3. Playlist support: MM is also ahead by far; it's the only way I've found to easily create playlists from my computer and put them on my G1 phone.

4. Performance: MM is more spry.

Ideologically, I'm a fan of open-source; if Songbird caught up, I'd use it. But it hasn't.

[Sebastian78]

I've always found fashion hard to pin down...

I strongly agree with that. I've always found Apple interface design (think iTunes) absolutely horrible, yet most think it's the pinnacle of design.

Conformity is equal to insanity! I don't own a mac, but I'm always in awe after using one. "Why didn't MS think of that!"....but "most" is debatable. Apple have 10% OS marketshare. Taste is like a peice of ass, split in half and hairy in the middle!

I do like MM and I still use it....if anyone wondered

[Sebastian78]

I find no reason to disagree with anything Sebastian wrote in the first post, However, I really agree with one of the points;

The new user hurdle is incredible large.
Yes, MM is powerful and has alot of functions, but the default layout should not show all of this.

If a power user installs it, they are comfortable.
If a basic user installs it, they find it confusing.

The default setup should be tailored for a basic user. If a power user installs it they will search for functionality and tailor the toolbars to show what they need.
But when a basic user installs it, they will do nothing but try and use it, and if the basic operations aren't obvious because of the clutter, the experience wont be good.

So strip back everything - turn most of the toolbars off by default - the advanced users will find them (and everythings in the drop down menus also).

For the same reason, I think the right click menu should be stripped back too - everything is available in the drop down menus anyway.
Having so many things listed in the right click, "shortcut" area means that half of them are a substantial scroll away and visual in a clutter with 10 other things - so it's not much of a shortcut.

It's this bombardment that causes MediaMonkey to be the most downloaded player but not the most used.
Users will download it - be bombarded with complexity and then uninstall it for something simpler.

Dale.

@Dale: You are insanely intelligent!

This is a wish I have as well and one of my "nagging" points about MM. I am now an advanced user, but even I still want a "basic" view now and again. I have said it before and I'll do it again.

Mediamonkey need a tab function for 1) Basic view 2) Advanced view (or custom) 3) Custom

@@Sirandar888: Very true, my post became better because you moderate what I wanted to say. Also, the title was written to get people to look at the post. Simple tactic. I'm a but harsh sometimes, but I hope people can read between the lines and get what I really want to say.

Rules for further MM development:

1. Don't remove any features
2. Don't add any features (like video, pictures etc.)
3. Make it look "neater" and "prettier"
3. Have once view for Basic and one for Advanced.
4. Never, ever make MM anything other then a mp3 player!

[rovingcowboy]

uh? you mean there is trouble for people using mediamonkey? gee! never thought it was that hard?

first thing i do with all the new programs is look for the options cause they have to have some.
if they don't want any in there then the mostly put an link to their web site on the options tab's

but doing right clicking and looking for the options is just normal thing for me, i don't consider myself a power user
but if looking for options is what that is called then i guess i am.

[il.]

Amazing post!

I am new to this, and after reading all of the posts, i can only say one thing: congrats to all the community! It's really rare to see this kind of constructive arguments laid down in an online forum.


Second here is a little background about me: i almost don't use music on my laptop, to show how "much" i use music, until recently VLC fulfilled ALL my needs! I downloaded itunes in january because my girlfriend gave me an ipod touch.


Then let's get back to the arguments:

1. the name: songbird is cute, it seems to be tailored to the design (grey/white/sleak). MM on the other hand is a little bit less...

2. the license: songbird is free and open source. That's cute. MM shows you a nagscreen at first which made me think "i do not have all the functions until you buy me" kind of things. (I know it's wrong)

3. MM should think about what market they are targeting: geek niche, mass market? If it's mass market, they should follow the hype in a way with the glossy buttons brought by the mac world and neat interface. The bars seems so "windows" on MM it's crazy!

4. It's not that clutered, but if I were you, I would:
a. put a nicer interface as the default (you can do that by using a skin contest?)
b. offer a little bit "bulkier" package with a couple of skins and addons pre-packed.
c. in the same time, offer a prompt in the installation asking: first time user? Advanced user? (you might even add "stupid itunes user"? and then tailor the look and feel accordingly.
d. get rid of the nag-screen but put a reminder every month or so for example. It's really not a good welcoming screen! Better to put a screen with "That's how to get started" (and show a couple of great things here that the competition only dream of...)

Well, that's it for today, If i think of another think I will get back.

But please for the person who think differently than Sebastien, keep in mind that it all depends of where MM wants to head next: if it's for the mass market, think "stupid ipod/itunes users". Seriously, I was working in a store selling phones and mp3 players, you cannot imagine what was 80% of the questions about "i want an ipod / i want to copy music on my ipod etc.." Most people now use ipod as mp3 player, and MM should think about what its target is. If it's those user, then Sebastien is right.

Have a great day!

[Sebastian78]

Amazing post!

I am new to this, and after reading all of the posts, i can only say one thing: congrats to all the community! It's really rare to see this kind of constructive arguments laid down in an online forum.

Welcome il. and I take it that's not you being ironic (its SO hard online figuring out who's taking the piss at you and who's not ). But I actually think you are right, this has developed into something very contructive (and not every Fanboy hating me.

1. the name: songbird is cute, it seems to be tailored to the design (grey/white/sleak). MM on the other hand is a little bit less...

Cute, weeell not cuter than Firefox and Thunderbird. It's like "a theme" for Mozilla don'tcha know. But I agree with the" grey/white/sleek" comment and the "other" thing you hinted at about MM (which is my main gripe at the moment, reminds me of Win 3.11 sometimes).

2. the license: songbird is free and open source. That's cute. MM shows you a nagscreen at first which made me think "i do not have all the functions until you buy me" kind of things. (I know it's wrong)

I paid for MM Gold and I don't really care THAT much about if it's free or not, I just want it (whatever IT is) to be as good and look as good as possible

3. MM should think about what market they are targeting: geek niche, mass market? If it's mass market, they should follow the hype in a way with the glossy buttons brought by the mac world and neat interface. The bars seems so "windows" on MM it's crazy!

Hmmm, I think they currently are "in between girlfriends". On one side, they want to make money (more consumers) and the other hand they want to go to bed with the nerds. I THINK it could work, they COULD satisfy BOTH camps. One way, as I suggest, is to have a tab function built into MM. One "Basic/iTunes" view and one "Advanced/Monkeyboy" view. I actually want to use BOTH. I love iTunes for it's simplicity, but I also hate it for it's simplicity. Give me both?

4. It's not that clutered, but if I were you, I would:
a. put a nicer interface as the default (you can do that by using a skin contest?)
b. offer a little bit "bulkier" package with a couple of skins and addons pre-packed.
c. in the same time, offer a prompt in the installation asking: first time user? Advanced user? (you might even add "stupid itunes user"? and then tailor the look and feel accordingly.
d. get rid of the nag-screen but put a reminder every month or so for example. It's really not a good welcoming screen! Better to put a screen with "That's how to get started" (and show a couple of great things here that the competition only dream of...)

a. Please, a better looking interface. A skin contest is a smart way to handle this.
b. Why not, a few more mb wont do any harm.
c. Yes, this would have made MY transition to MM easier. It was a pain in tha @ss in the beginning to figure it out.
d. Yes, friendly is the key

But please for the person who think differently than Sebastien, keep in mind that it all depends of where MM wants to head next: if it's for the mass market, think "stupid ipod/itunes users". Seriously, I was working in a store selling phones and mp3 players, you cannot imagine what was 80% of the questions about "i want an ipod / i want to copy music on my ipod etc.." Most people now use ipod as mp3 player, and MM should think about what its target is. If it's those user, then Sebastien is right.

As I said, you can cater to both camps. Why not call it "Monkey User" and "Gorilla User"? Most people are stupid really....


I'll be back!

[il.]

Thanks for your reply.

I wasn't ironic. I was just amazed. I wish the congress / senate were that constructive when the hold arguments hearings!

Just wanted to add regarding your comment: the tab is great, but i think it would be even better if there was a "first-time user" prompt. That IS important to take the first user by the hand. Actually you don't even need to, the first-time user is probably a former WMP or Itunes user, so ask IF he wants a similar skin WITH the power of MM, BUT not in a "ALL IN YOUR FACE" type.

Hope that I am constructive aswell!

Good luck with the other comments.

Kind regards,

ilias,

PS: Is it me, or is MM less cluttered now than on the older version?

[DaledeSilva]

I don't think the two tabs should be basic & advanced, because I don't think that they specifically apply tot hose categories.

I think that tabs (or view modes) should be "listen" and "organize"
both obviously customizable individually

[Lowlander]

Spybot Search & Destroy has this implemented in a menu. Select advanced and all the options that can make a mess of your system become available.

[il.]

I don't think the two tabs should be basic & advanced, because I don't think that they specifically apply tot hose categories.

I think that tabs (or view modes) should be "listen" and "organize"
both obviously customizable individually

Hi Dale,

I understand what you mean, but it would be still the current MM. I think that that what Seb wanted at first is: get MM EASY and SLEAK, BUT keep the functions for the more advanced users. I guess it's a way of saying: the "easy-to-use" Itunes and Songbird get it right, let's make MM to get it aswell (while keeping the features we love about for advanced users and fastlearners)

Well, that's my guess!

[yester64]

Well, i am just a normal user. I don't even call myself a nerd at all (altough somewhat nerdy) and i love to organize my collection.
The one thing what drove me to mediamonkey was simply the fact, that mediamonkey was not bloaded like apples itunes. seriously, if a program rattles for seconds to count and than drags everything, then there is something wrong.
I do not want to buy the latest machine just to run a stupid media organizer.
It is in fact with pretty much every software these days.
Sure, Mediamonkey does not look as pretty as other ones, but it does everything well in my opinion, but then again i am not a nerd and do not use even all the options so far.

To me the Number 1 thing which is important in a software is the reliability (no crashes), at least supports x64 (natively would be awesome) and does not get bloaded over time so it may end up running slow and draggy.
Native x64 support is actually one of my biggest issues with software. Still there is not a lot of natively written software available. Hope that changes sometime.

I am even tired of hopping from software to software, so i am guessing i will stay with mediamonkey since there is not really a reason for me to change it again.
btw. open source does not mean that a software is better in the future. You can see a lot of software in that pool that once was hip, but then noone contiued the development or they have other priorities. Commercial is usually more consistent in that perspect.

[yester64]

Just checked Songbird. (no install)
Just from the filesize, this player is much bigger (more features?). 13MB versus 6MB.
And it does look like iTunes. Nah, i love Mediamonkey better. And i don't care much about Flicker etc... but that might be a generationthing.

[Sebastian78]

I don't think the two tabs should be basic & advanced, because I don't think that they specifically apply tot hose categories.

I think that tabs (or view modes) should be "listen" and "organize"
both obviously customizable individually

Well, yes and no......that would work for me now and my needs. But if I'm a new user, it would still be "harder" then starting to use iTunes.

Basic & Advanced view
Basic - Listen & Organiza
Advanced - LIsten & Organize

?

[hintergrundrauschen]

I'm a little late in joining this discussion and I just want to highlight what I really think are very important issues to me as well as for further market success.

I really like MM3's look, I think its very nice. Nevertheless I could imagine that developers should keep in mind that there's some danger for MM to become looking outdated in the future, especially regarding the archive tree.

Get rid of that complicated t[h]ree

I appreciate the tree for its maximum functionality and I don't see how any other solution would provide as much potential functionality as the tree does. But then again, I'm not a usability/interface designer and there could be a better solution. But what's more important is that I would suggest an *alternative* the user could choose. I love MM and I recommend and show it to friends. They are impressed, but the non-nerd, average non-computer-pro friends either don't think the tree is looking sexy or the tree is too complicated for a usage without initial learning - or both. So those people won't switch to MM. Friends selecting songs in my MM during my party just want to find and select songs just as easily and without thinking as they could in iTunes. You can't be everything for everyone, but I think it would be very easy to make a nice looking, simple window pane like in iTunes that can be used as an alternative to the tree that would convince at least some people I know to use MM.

Just as a side note: on my slow computer (I know...) with a very large music collection it takes incredibly long to open up the artist or album nodes for the first time - follow-up navigation within those trees is fast. I know this is a computational problem. But at least it's ugly when MM gets the standard windows blue&white window frame because the running process is blocking system communication.

Tabs!!!!!!!!!!

This has been discussed in the wishlist before, but I would really, really love it. Speaking of modern interface. So much information MM provides, so few space!

Better development community for add on's and themes

It would be nice if the integrated update button would work at least for major add ons like MonkeyRok & MagicNodes.

It's annoying as H when you start it up and EVERY program running hangs for 5-6 sec

Can't confirm a hang. Everything slows down for 10 secs here, but starting Photoshop does, also.

Finally, speaking of modern interfaces and genius ways to access your music (I don't know Songbird, though), I also think developers should keep in mind possible usability and GUI trends of the future (but I strongly assume they already do ). With ever growing archive sizes, this becomes more and more important. Examples are as diverse as artist aliases, entity & relationship management (band leader also performs as solo artist, etc.) and free tagging / tag clouds, possibly with structured tag relationships (e.g. genre Chinese is automatically child of genre Asian, Free-Jazz child of Jazz). I'd also like to remind of my classification wish post here: http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... =4&t=30902. I know these examples are basically functionality issues, but today they are usability/GUI issues as much.

I think "MonkeyRok" is an example of a script which could be made much more stable if it was native functionality, but I wouldn't want this to get in the way of some of the other planned developments for 4.0.

Totally agree.