leveling problems

guest · Post by **guest** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:03 pm

[Win XP Pro fully updated, MM gold 2.5b4, but happened also in b3 and probably previous versions too. Originally posted in the help forum (using b3), but got no solution, and having made further tests I think it's a bug.]

I "normalize" all my songs to MP3s at 128kbs leveled (leveled, not analyzed) at 85db which works fine for me, playing from the computer, MP3 player and MP3 CDs. But in a few cases the leveled songs sound too loud or too soft. I tried to re-level these songs using various settings, but either noticed no change or managed somehow to drop the volume way too much without being able to restore it.

My "standard" settings in the leveling options are (used when leveling, converting and ripping):

Volune Analysis: baseline 85db, analayze only unknown - unchecked.
Playback: target 85db, level playback volume - checked
CD: target 85db
Clipping prevention - checked.

These settings works for the vast majority of songs. The goal is to have the exceptions leveled in a way they will play at the desired volume without having to change the standard settings during playback, or having to incr/decr the volume in the CD or MP3 players.

I ripped a test song from the audio CD several times (with leveling checked). I kept one version "as is" for comparing. Each test was performed on another ripped copy. MM wasn't running any other process while I experimented. No equalizer was active during the tests.

I can't make any sense of the results, and the bottom line is that I didn't manage to re-level the song so that it would play a little louder using the standard settings.

== Tests ==

The procedure (except for test 1 which was used as a control) was:
- Change the leveling options
- "Level track volume"
- Note the db offset in the level column
- Play the song, comparing to the original (leveling options still changed)
- Reset the leveling options to the "standard" settings
- Play the song, comparing to the original

Test 1:
Level at same settings (i.e. re-level at standard settings)
Level column +0.4db
Play - no diff from org

Test 2:
Level at ana. 91db
Level column +4.9db
Play - no diff from org
Reset ana. to 85db
Level column -1.1db
Play - no diff from org

Test 3:
Level at ana & plbk 91db
Level column +4.9db
Play - loud parts significantly louder, soft parts no significant diff.
Reset ana & plbk to 85db
Level column -1.1db
Play - no diff from org

Test 4:
Level at ana. 91db, clp prv unchecked
Level column +0.4db
Play - no diff from org
Reset ana. to 85db, clp orv checked
Level column -5.6db
Play - no diff from org

Test 5:
Level at ana & plbk 91db, clp prv unchecked
Level column +0.4db
Play - loud parts significantly louder, soft parts no significant diff.
Reset ana & plbk to 85db, clp prv checked
Level column -5.6db
Play - no diff from org

Test 6:
Level at ana. 79db
Level column +0.4db
Play - no diff from org
Reset ana. to 85db
Level column +6.4db
Play - no diff from org

Test 7:
Level at ana & plbk 79db
Level column +0.4db
Play - loud parts significantly softer, soft parts no significant diff.
Reset ana & plbk to 85db
Level column +6.4db
Play - loud parts significantly softer, soft parts no significant diff.

Test 8:
Level at ana. 79db, clp prv unchecked
Level column +0.4db
Play - no diff from org
Reset ana. to 85db, clp orv checked
Level column +6.4db
Play - loud parts somewhat softer

Test 9:
Level at ana & plbk 79db, clp prv unchecked
Level column +0.4db
Play - loud parts significantly softer, soft parts no significant diff.
Reset ana & plbk to 85db, clp prv checked
Level column +6.4db
Play - significantly softer

guest · Post by **guest** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:17 pm

Forgot to mention and might be relevant.

I use ID3c1 & v2 tags and "update tags when editing" is checked.

The ripping dialog has "level track volume' checked, but the ripped files have in the Info tab the leveling field set to "not calculated".

rovingcowboy · Post by **rovingcowboy** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:13 pm

check rustys answer in this thread of mine.

it might help you? it might not but he did explain the way monkey levels sound in it.

the link takes you to the need help room.

http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6534

guest · Post by **guest** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:06 pm

rovingcowboy wrote:check rustys answer in this thread of mine.

it might help you? it might not but he did explain the way monkey levels sound in it.

the link takes you to the need help room.

http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6534

I did help when I read it (before posting the first message in the help forum) - help in realizing it shouldn't be hapenning.

tableguy · Post by **tableguy** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:14 pm

If I understand your message posting, is that you can raise and lower the volume from the orginal pressing of the CD into MP3 player?

guest · Post by **guest** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:04 am

tableguy wrote:If I understand your message posting, is that you can raise and lower the volume from the orginal pressing of the CD into MP3 player?

I'm not sure what it is you're asking.

The help on volume leveling says:

"Volume Leveling allows Tracks to be played back at a consistent volume level, so that you don't have to manually adjust the volume to compensate for some Tracks being recorded at higher/lower volumes than others."

My problem is with the fine tuning needed for some specific songs. The leveling at the "consistent volume" mentioned above (I use 85db) works for the vast majority of songs. But there are some exceptional files that leveling at 85db makes sound either too loud or too soft.

According to the help I should be able to adjust the levels of such songs, but the results in my tests make no sense.

Post by **rusty** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:46 am

I retested in MM 2.5 beta 5 (didn't use a sound meter this time), but it seems to be working correctly.

One thing to keep in mind: If you've actually 'Leveled Volume' of some of the tracks but ALSO analyzed the tracks, then when you play them in MM, although the volume of the MP3 file has been physically changed, a new volume leveling co-efficient (near 0) will be generated, but it is still used if 'Level Playback Volume' is enabled.

The other very important thing to keep in mind is that by default, volume levels are not re-analyzed if a co-efficient already exists. In order to re-analyze the co-efficient, you have to disable the first checkbox option in the volume leveling dialog. This could explain why very often you observed no change in results. Let me know if this is the case.

-Rusty

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:26 am

rusty wrote:I retested in MM 2.5 beta 5 (didn't use a sound meter this time), but it seems to be working correctly.

Is there some free utility that will measure db's? [My hearing can only be trusted so far - all those watts in my youth, Charlie included

]

rusty wrote:One thing to keep in mind: If you've actually 'Leveled Volume' of some of the tracks but ALSO analyzed the tracks, then when you play them in MM, although the volume of the MP3 file has been physically changed, a new volume leveling co-efficient (near 0) will be generated, but it is still used if 'Level Playback Volume' is enabled.

I've never used "analyze" explicitly since the goal was always to get the MP3s "normalized" for several players (computer, MP3 CD and MP3 player) and not to have the volume MM-dependant. But if the "level" checkbox in the rip and convert dialogs does both a "level" and an "analyze", then an implicit "analyze" was done.

Is there a way to see in the properties if an "analyze" was done?

Just to be sure I'll try the same set of tests with the song ripped with the "level" option unchecked. Later today.

rusty wrote:The other very important thing to keep in mind is that by default, volume levels are not re-analyzed if a co-efficient already exists. In order to re-analyze the co-efficient, you have to disable the first checkbox option in the volume leveling dialog. This could explain why very often you observed no change in results. Let me know if this is the case.

Unchecked.

If it will help I can send the files of the various tests, or do the tests again in debug mode. Let me know.

guest · Post by **guest** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:17 am

I did a quick test with the song ripped with "level" UNchecked. Then I used tools>level with just the baseline changed to 85db (all other settings as before, see first message). No noticeable change in the platback volume.

Awaiting further insights ...

guest · Post by **guest** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:49 pm

Found the cause - "level playback volume" must be UNchecked (off) in order for the for a high baseline set using volume leveling to be effective.

The option settings:

Baseline Volume Level - 85db
Analyze Volume only for Tracks with Unknown Leveling Adjustment - off
Target Volume Level for Player - 85db
Level Playback Volume - OFF (was on in previous tests)
Target Volume Level for Burning Audio CDs - 85db
Clipping Prevention - ON

I ripped a song from an audio CD to MP3 CBR 128kbs, with "level track volume" UNchecked (off).

I set "baseline volume level" to 91 db, did a "level track volume", reset "baseline volume level" to 85db, et voila - the song plays significantly louder.

Help says:

"Level Playback Volume - If this is enbaled, then the MediaMonkey player will play back Tracks that have volume Leveling coefficients at a level volume. It has no effect on Tracks that do not have a volume leveling coefficient."

The track should not have had a "volume leveling coefficient", because it was ripped (no leveling) and leveled (not analyzed). According to the help "Level playback volume" should have had no effect [and I shouldn't have had to spent I don't know how many hours to figure it out

]

Either the help text is VERY wrong, or analyzed coefficients are written into the tags where they shouldn't.

be you gee ...

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