Ripping CDs to FLAC: Some General Questions

[richard_keen]

Good Morning
I'm a new MM (Gold) user and I have just started the monumental task of ripping my 1300+ CDs (around 900 of them are classical music) all to FLAC to create a backup for my CD collection. After that, I plan on creating playlists in MM and converting the playlists to MP3 for use on my portable devices...

I also have around 1000+ tracks downloaded from various sources (mainly MP3 but also some WMA and M4A / MP4 files from itunes). Some of these files will also form the basis of playlists for portable listening.

So, the questions..

1) When ripping to FLAC from CD, if I check the 'Level Volume' Box in the ripping dialogue window, does that mean that the newly created FLAC files themselves are irreversibly altered? I cannot see the volume that it is being normalised against (I read somewhere that 89dB is "standard" whatever that means..)

2) On the same subject, if the volume is leveled, is it track leveling per album or for the whole database that is being performed...? I'm a bit confused sorry.

3) At the moment I am busy ripping all my non-classical music. But soon I will begin with the classical stuff. Anybody out there have any suggestions on any tagging conventions or tips and tricks that they would like to share. Rock and pop is easy to tag (at least for me - I use Artist - Album -Track No. - Track Name and that's good enough for me) but my classical music is a mix of full operas, solo instumentalists, vocal compilation CDs and orchestral works. I think I will end up using the Custom Tags for more functionality (Composer, Orchestra etc). Can you have more than the 5 Custom tags on offer...?

4) Are m3u album playlist files ripped along with CD metadata or do I have create them myself?

5) Should I be using the Virtual CD to do all this? The few CDs I have already ripped to my external HD, I have just ripped the CD to the Drive and then Autotagged from the Web (or FreedB), downloaded the album art from Amazon or Googled it. I haven't used the Virtual CD and don't really see the point. Could someone please explain the point. (If any)?


Thanks in advance for any help. I have probably asked some stupid questions, forgive me, until 6 weeks ago I had no idea what MM was and thought FLAC was some kind of Anti-Aircraft Gun...

[nohitter151]

does that mean that the newly created FLAC files themselves are irreversibly altered? I cannot see the volume that it is being normalised against (I read somewhere that 89dB is "standard" whatever that means..)

Yes, they are irreversibly altered (I believe the resultant ripped wav file is itself altered then converted into flac). The target volume for leveling tracks is 89dB (a standard value) though it can be changed at Tools | Options | Volume Leveling. I doubt you'll want to change it though, most people who do come back to the forum complaining that their music skips or has pops or otherwise degraded music quality. IMO, you shouldn't level the tracks at all, but that's just me...

On the same subject, if the volume is leveled, is it track leveling per album or for the whole database that is being performed...? I'm a bit confused sorry.

If you're doing it from the Rip CD dialog, you're ripping the tracks to a level volume per album.

I think I will end up using the Custom Tags for more functionality (Composer, Orchestra etc). Can you have more than the 5 Custom tags on offer...?

No, you can't have more than the 5 custom tags. Count yourself lucky, MediaMonkey version 2 only had 3 custom fields. I can't see why you'd need the custom tags for that purpose as there are already fields for conductor, composer, artist, album artist, involved people, etc.

Are m3u album playlist files ripped along with CD metadata or do I have create them myself?

No, they aren't ripped/created, but why would you need them? As long as the tracks are ripped with meta data you can already browse your collection by album/artist/title/any other field, that's the whole point. I don't see why you'd need playlists for it.

Should I be using the Virtual CD to do all this? The few CDs I have already ripped to my external HD, I have just ripped the CD to the Drive and then Autotagged from the Web (or FreedB), downloaded the album art from Amazon or Googled it. I haven't used the Virtual CD and don't really see the point. Could someone please explain the point. (If any)?

If you want to rip Tracks from CDs and also catalog your physical CDs, you wouldn't take the approach of adding the CDs to the Library (by scanning them as you would any audio file) and then ripping them as this would result in duplicate entries. The Track would appear once for the CD version of the Track and a second time for the ripped version. To avoid this, you would use the Virtual CD.

I think that most users don't care about cataloging their physical CDs and just want a digital collection of their media. If that is the case, you should just rip your CDs normally.

[MMan]

I agree with nohitter's comments. A couple of other thoughts, If you want more info on volume leveling, see:

http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... ng#p167398

It sounds like you have a fairly large classical collection. I found even using volume analysis and then leveling on playback does not work well for Classical music. Tracks that have long intentionally low volume sections get "pushed" too much which can cause pops/clipping on playback.

You should also look at the Monkey Help Index > Tag - Introduction > Tag Fields for a list of the monkey fields and how they map to the tags of various audio formats. It is always best to use the standard fields for information to maximize the chances that the file can be easily be used outside of Monkey. Use the non-standard or custom Monkey fields as a last resort if you can't do what you want with the standard FLAC fields.

Remember that any tracks that have the same values for the Album and Album Artist fields will be grouped as an album in Monkey (and most other players/organizers). For you compilations therefore, you should use something like Various or Various Artists in the Album Artist field. If you want the compilations grouped by Genre without using a filter or magic nodes you could use something like Various Artists - Classical.

Lastly, if you are just starting to rip the collection. A number of things to think about are discussed in this thread:

http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... 08#p177899

Good luck!

[cdrikari]

I recently completed a similar project.

I find MM very useful for the organization, playlists, syncing and all that.

If you're doing the original rip though? I wouldn't think of using MM. If you care enough to have 900+ classical discs you seriously need to use Exact Audio Copy (free) to generate your initial FLACs.

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

It's free, easy to use and it's error correction has saved the day for me several times.

Good luck with your mountain, err project.

[richard_keen]

Thanks for ALL the above recommendations. Great help and much appreciated.

One final question though... sorry.
I have been reading some other threads and have read that Level Volume can only be applied to MP3 files. Does this then apply when checking the "Level Volume Tag" during a CD rip to FLAC?

"NoHitter", you wrote that the WAV file is created first during the rip and this is volume levelled, before conversion to FLAC. When I display the Track Volume tag on all my ripped FLACs they report a ZERO +/- dB value... Have they been altered or not? I presume they have, otherwise there would be no point in MM to have the option to Level Volume while ripping to FLAC...??? Thanks in advance for your thoughts, I've already ripped 100+ CDs with Level Volume enabled and if they have been permanently altered, I'm gonna do them again. Cos I'm stubborn like that

"cdrikari", I am indeed flirting with the idea of EAC for all my classical stuff but I admit I am a bit put-off by the reports of ~10-40 mins rip time per CD... Counted them last night and there are over a thousand of them. I'm not sure my relationship would survive that particular little "mountain". Let me think about that one. Thanks anyway.

[MMan]

Unfortunately, based upon the description below from the Monkey Help (see Red text), while MP3 may be the only format to formally use the "Replay Gain" coefficient to alter the volume of the track itself, it seems that Monkey can and does use a similar type of algorithm to adjust the volume when ripping, converting or syncing if "Volume Leveling" is "On". I would say that it did change the files on the CDs that you have already ripped. See language in red below. I believe that the 0 +/- Db values just mean that they don't have "Replay Gain" values in the tags, not that they weren't altered in the rip. Sorry.

If it is any consolation, just about all of us have had to redo significant amounts of work, myself included, as we learn about the transition to digital. I hear you about the EAC thing, but I did it for over 800 CDs and at least now feel comfortable that I have as good a digital copy of my CDs as a can. With good back-up practices, I hope that it is a once in a lifetime investment of time. Good Luck.


From Monkey Help > Basic Concepts:

Volume Leveling
When tracks are digitally encoded from different sources and using different encoders or encoder settings, they will invariably play back at different volumes on different players and devices. Several technologies have evolved to deal with this problem, and it's useful to understand them so that you use the approach that best meets your needs:

Replay Gain
This is the most standardized approach to volume leveling, providing a comprehensive approach for all audio formats without impacting audio fidelity. Replay Gain implementations use a multi-phase approach: first track volumes are analyzed and the resulting coefficient is saved to the track's tag (Track gain). Then after all tracks on an Album have been analyzed, a single coefficient is saved for all tracks on the album (Album gain). Then, during playback, the Album or Track gain tag is read and the player adjusts the volume up or down accordingly (Album gain is preferable for playing an entire Album and preserving the inter-track volume variances encoded in the original album, while Track gain is preferred for playing a playlist of tracks from various sources). This is an excellent approach for PC-based players, but is limited because many portable devices do not support Replay Gain tags, and thus when tracks are synced to a device, the volume will vary.

MediaMonkey supports Replay Gain analysis and playback (per Track and per Album via 'Analyze Volume' and 'Level Playback Volume').

Soundcheck
This is Apple's variation on Replay Gain. iTunes generates Soundcheck co-efficients which are used to level playback volume. The pros of Soundcheck are that it is recognized by iPod devices and thus volume is leveled even when playing on them without any loss in fidelity. The downside is that it is non-standard, and other Players do not recognize Soundcheck values.

MediaMonkey supports Soundcheck, converting Replay Gain and Soundcheck values on the fly as tracks are synced between a PC and iPod.

MP3 Gain
This is a variation on Replay Gain, the difference being that rather than saving the analysis co-efficient to a tag, the volume of the MP3 file is actually modified based on the analysis. The benefits of this approach are that like Replay Gain there is no loss in Audio Fidelity, and the resulting MP3 files can be played at level volumes on any MP3 player. The downside is that the approach is limited to MP3.

MediaMonkey supports MP3 Gain type volume leveling via the 'Level Volume' command, and can even do so on-the-fly when synching to a device.

Conversion
Whenever tracks are converted from one format to another, the level of the volume can be adjusted. This is useful when there's a need to convert formats, however, for anything else, this is not a desirable means of achieving level volumes since it results in loss of fidelity.

MediaMonkey supports conversion (including CD Ripping and burning) with volume leveling, and can do so on-the-fly when synching to a device.

Audio Normalization
This is an approach used by some Output or DSP plugins that adjust sound levels on the fly during playback to keep them within a defined range. It is generally not recommended as it can introduce audio artifacts.

[nohitter151]

Yeah, what he said ^^

[Guest]

MMan and NoHitter...

Thanks again for the in-depth info and I'll say goodbye to another couple of weekends...

Cheers.!!

[MMan]

I forgot to mention that if you do go the EAC route, it allows two simultaneous instances when ripping and error checking. If you have two drives, you can rip two disks at the same time. If you only have one, it might be worth looking into getting a second drive........

[littleredspot]

Hi all,
I've eventually bit the bullet and decided to re-rip my 600 odd CD's as FLAC's. I've been reading up as much info as possible on this and other forums, I found mman's advice http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... 08#p177899 particularly good. My remaining question is... what's wrong with MediaMonkeys FLAC encoder? I find it really easy and convenient to use. I've tried EAC and DBPoweramp and find them much more awkward. As FLAC is an exact copy surely which encoder you use is irrelevant. What does the offset of my drive have to do with it for example? and just how important is a cue file? I can appreciate that AccurateRip is a handy thing but how many errors does it typically throw up? I'm 100 CD's in, and two of them have had a problem with MM. I can live with that.

Thanks

[Lowlander]

I believe that EAC has the best error checking available. If you care enough about audio quality to rip to FLAC you might want to consider doing it with the best encoder.

[MMan]

Just to clarify, I don't think that there is much, if any, difference between what EAC does when it converts the Wav file to FLAC and what is done in Monkey. The big difference is in the error checking during the read of the CD during the creation ofthe WAV file. When reading the CDs if there is a scratch or a smudge on the CD, Monkey is way more likely to just skip over or accept what it reads. EAC has way more error checking than Monkey or just about any Ripping/Encoding program, including the Accurrip database. If EAC does detect an error in the read, it has error correction algoritms to try and estimate a fix by resampling over the error numerous times to get the most likely estimate. So first, Monkey likely won't even catch the errors in the read and even if it could/did catch them it does not have the erorr correction algorithms. If you cleaned the CD and used EAC for the rip, you are probably getting the best archival copy of your CD that is reasonably possible. Obviously if your CD is badly scratched, a better copy could be made from an unscratched copy.

As I have said in other posts, 90+% of the time you will likely not even notice the difference between the two rips. However, if you do it right once and use good back up, you should never have to do it again and you will at least never have that nagging feeing that there could be errors in the files.

[littleredspot]

Hi, thanks for the prompt replies. I'm still debating. OP I don't mean to hijack your post, but I thought that my question would help you too. Mod's feel free to move it. Lowlander as you say the fact that I'm going to the trouble to re-rip my CD's would suggest that I do indeed care about the quality of my music, indeed the reason for the re-rip, is that I'm changing my primary listening source from a high quality CD/vinyl set-up to the PC. I've been listening to the files that I've already ripped and I'm not noticing 'errors'. As always with high end its a lot to do with the listeners ear. As i mentioned about every 1 in 50 CD's that I've ripped with MM has thrown up 'There was a problem reading the audio data' I've put these to one side and can go back to them with EAC. I suppose at the end of the day it comes down to time. I tried another disc with EAC and gave up after 40 min. MM has been flying through them at setting 5. Is there anyway to compare the ripped files with AccuRip after ripping them in MM?

[nohitter151]

Is there anyway to compare the ripped files with AccuRip after ripping them in MM?

Nope

[MMan]

It would be nice. I think that an AccurateRip Id value is created during the rip process which is then compared to the AccurateRip DB to see if it was a good rip. However, even if you could, I guessing that the majority of files would show as having errors (albiet likely impreceptable errors). You would then be faced with having spent the time ripping in Monkey and checking with AccurateRip and now having to re-rip with EAC. The good and the bad about the time that EAC can take is that the more time EAC is taking to rip a CD the more it is needed and doing its job finding and correcting errors in the read. Having said that, the quality of your drive can have a big impact on the time EAC spends ripping. I have two drives and the same disk can take around 10+ minutes longer on one versus the other. If I were to start all over ripping a huge collection it might be worth searching the EAC forums for the best drive and making a $100 investment in one that works quickly with EAC. Its is all a question of how anal you want to be about getting an accurate copy of the CD compared to the time you are willing to spend. Another option would be to prioritize your collection and only use EAC on your favorite and most listened to disks (likely the ones with the most scratches, therefore needing EAC). I would be the first to say that that is a personal choice with no one right answer.