MM4 Bad Aero experience [#7198, 7200]

[lf0]

I just installed MM4 beta to see how the progress on the Aero front is.
Sadly I had to realize that nothing has improved and things even got worse.

For reference, my detailed description of what is wrong with the current look and feel of MM was outlined in
Better Native Windows UI (Win7)

I subsequently wrote the single issues in the bug report forum as
List and Tree Views don't use the Aero theme
Menus don't use the Aero theme
Seek bar and volume control should use a proper slider
in the hope that those independent issues would be assigned to single entries in the bug tracker.

As of now, only the slider has got some face-lifiting and that bring me to my new grief - the overuse of the glass effect in MM4.
See for example Window Frames on how Microsoft intended the use of glass/aero effects.
To quote:
Consider using glass strategically for a simpler, lighter, more cohesive look.
and
Don't use glass in situations where a plain window background would be more attractive or easier to use..

Now many window have some sort of glass effect no matter if it is visually appealing or even enhancing the user experience. Especially the main window makes the buttons and seekbar a usability nightmare as the underlying windows distract from the actual controls. Same goes for the main menu, that is neither easy to read nor allows the previous customization by utilizing a free placement. If you had put the tabs like Chrome, Firefox and Opera do on top that would be understandable - but the menu is clearly the wrong choice and does not improve anything. (And even for tabs I doubt that it should be the main focus for a media player in contrast to a browser...)

I am very, very disappointed in what the look and feel of the (unskinned) MediaMonkey 4 has ended up in the current state and my hopes are very low to see any real improvement until the final version is released.

Sorry for the downers but it makes me sad that this great media player does not get the necessary attention in the UX that it deserves.

[stoffel]

I totally agree with you comments!

Don't use glass as standard backgrounds

[vpsaxman]

This is a nice and detailed bug post. I wonder if this has to be tackled by the skinners or developers.

Whoever it is though, it really needs to be done as MM desperately needs a facelift. I wouldn't be worried though, the recent updates and intervention of developers show they want to make things right. It will just take time.

[rovingcowboy]

i believe the backgrounds will have to be handled by both the developers and the skinners as we can when skinning make
one background for the now playing and one for the tree, and one for the listview.

multiple child windows added by scripts will use one of those for their backgrounds.

so if there are to be more single backgrounds for the child windows they will have to be coded in to monkey by the developers,.

we can make the window now that is used by the child windows the most as a solid background and use glass on others.

it might even be done by making the glass image in the photo editors and making only the edges glass like and the center
hard frosted glass image. that might be more liked by the users. now of course this is only going on my art talent as i can't see the aero skins.

[Dreadlau]

If you had put the tabs like Chrome, Firefox and Opera do on top that would be...

absolutely awesome!

Because it would look better;
it would save space;
it would make it pertinent to make it always show tab at startup.
( which would encourage users to use that new feature )

[thebertster]

I have never personally understood the concept of skinning individual applications - the OS should define a consistent look and feel of applications in my view (this is about the only thing Apple have ever got right - again in my view ;¬) - but MM really has the worst-looking unskinned mode ever! The default icons look like they are from Windows 3.1 and the default controls look like they are from a Commodore 64! It seems so strange given the amount of work that has gone into the rest of the application.

While Aero transparency effects are being (over) used, other Aero elements such as selection highlights and colours are either not used or are used inconsistently. For example in the library list views, when an album is selected in the track list view, the OS's default (non-Aero!!!) "Selected Items" background colour is used, but black is always used as the foreground colour rather than the configured "Selected Items" foreground colour. This makes the text unreadable if the user has chosen a dark background colour! For the currently selected track, a blue colour is used that doesn't seem to match any OS colour scheme element which can clash horribly with the user's chosen colour scheme. There are many other examples.

The over-use of the Aero transparency effect, as has been pointed out, renders the application ugly in the best case scenario or actually unusable in the worst case. In particular, the completely transparent dialog boxes and the transparency behind the playing controls, combined with the hideously ugly playing controls themselves, make the application look terrible.

Just my opinion of course!

[gege]

I've been testing MM4 alpha for a week or so and I'd like to share some thoughts on the current design.
I was ready to start a new thread about this, but I think this one fits perfectly, so I'll post here.
I'll try to address one point at a time, posting whenever is possible some mockups, to clarify my suggestions.
Some of the 'flaws' I'll point are related only to the skin in use, but most of them -- I think -- are related to the skin engine as a whole.

1) Main menu + Tabs design
The way these are currently implemented in MM4 are far from good, IMHO, because:
a) That '+' sign before the 'File' menu item is not standard and becomes redundant when there's two or more open tabs.
b) Main Menu directly over the glass is a bad choice in terms of readability and standardization (devs goal here is to gain some vertical space, I know, but it didn't work right. sorry) .
c) With the tabs bar open, we end up loosing vertical space at the right side anyway.




My inspiration so solve this comes from two modern browsers: Google Chrome and Opera.
In suggestion 1, I use the Chrome approach, under Glass interface. There will be at least one tab always open and the (single) '+' sign nicely fits the tab design. This will help making the users aware of this new feature but won't be in their way in case they decide not to use it. Main Menu is placed BELOW the tabs bar, side-by-side with the Standard Toolbar (I already do this to gain vertical space in MM3, and it works great, IMO).
Only downside here is semantic: the Main Menu is not related to a specific tab, it is global.




In suggestion 2, Opera comes to rescue. This time I made my mockup based on XP theme, but it would also work in Glass. The same idea of 'one tab always open' also applies. What's new here is the use of a consolidated main Menu at the left side of the Title bar, just like it's done in Opera 11 and also in Firefox 4.
Obviously this is not easy to implement right, 'cause the menu needs a complete rework, possibly with lots of menu items being wiped out.
We can clearly see the top portion of the application gets cleaner, uncluttered.



What do you think?

[Dreadlau]

@gege

Well I was going to make a post suggesting the exact same thing as your mockup Number2.
But you beat me to it! That's cool I don't need to make the mockup anymore.

So I think: A big YES!!!!

Please make this happen. This is how it should have been designed in the first place!

I strongly agree with a) b) and c) .

Mockup of suggestion 2 is how I always hoped mediamonkey would have been. ( since i heard about the addition of tabs )
Unfortunately it didn't turn out that way.

Oh and I almost forgot: the upper left menu button has to be skinnable of course!

[vpsaxman]

A while ago I read a post that made a lot of good points about the implementation of tabs and a menu button with a few screenshots and reference to the new microsoft office menu button. I can't find it though.

Edit : found it http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... ce#p271216

On a side note, and in cross reference to another thread, I really like the added depth Opera's graphics have.

[Lowlander]

I don't want a tab open if only one is open, that's a big loss of screen real estate, although I agree that it's easier to open a new tab that way. I do agree that the + in the main is weird. I also moved the main menu to sit with the other toolbars so mine looks like suggestion 1 anyway (can't talk about Areo experience as I'm on XP).

Suggestion 2, That looks out of place, but the concept of being able to collapse (as an option) the main menu does sound interesting. Perhaps a toolbar button that has this capability to show the main menu and submenus would be a nice addition. Another option would be what some programs like IE and WMP allow for is to be able to hide the main menu and activate it with the Alt key. With most actions being available as toolbar, right click and hotkey the main menu is not that much used here (except for scripts access, I wouldn't mind a separate toolbar button to access the Tools > Scripts menu directly).

[DreadM]

I use also Opera ,but don't like the Menu button and disable it ,
I think for the monkey solution 1 would work ,looks clean and nice ,
maybe with a drop down menu like it's made for the Main view's and play button's!

[Dreadlau]

I use also Opera ,but don't like the Menu button and disable it ,
I think for the monkey solution 1 would work ,looks clean and nice ,
maybe with a drop down menu like it's made for the Main view's and play button's!

I like solution 1 too. I'll be happy with solution 1 or 2.
But The text menus have to go! And the tabs must be in the titlebar (with the + sign on the right)!
I'm really hoping this suggestions will be adopted.

Maybe someone could open a ticket in Mantis re. gege suggestions.

[bbeat]

I agree with everything that has been said here, the visual look and aero experience really needs to be improved.

I personally like option 1 the chrome style, I think Dreadlau has summed it up well.

[Mizery_Made]

I personally prefer to have the tab bar present, even when there is only one tab open. This is how I've always had Firefox setup and I do it mostly for consistency (I'm not a fan of something being there in one circumstance, but not in another). It has been suggested that this be offered as an option (whether to show it when only one tab is open or not) and I would support such an option. I think it would make sense for it to be on by default (again, to make the feature more apparent to new users and upgraders, then they can turn it off if they prefer).

I wouldn't be a fan of the Tabs being above the main menu, but this is another personal preference. It's something else that could be made into an option, allowing both sides of the coin to be happy. I believe the Firefox 4 Betas (or whatever stage they're at) have it set up like this. Though this would require coding two different appearances.

I would definitely agree with the issue about the Glass (Aero) affect causing readability issues with the menu. It's an issue that appears elsewhere, such as on the pop up messages (such as after a file scan or during add-on installation). It may have been the initial poster in this thread, but someone said that there has been an over-use of the Aero/Glass effect and I would agree with that statement. Hopefully we see the option of overriding it (either by the user, or by the skinners as there are some skins where it clashes horribly).

I would definitely not be a fan of grouping all the menu options under one button. Oh, and I would agree about the New Tab button, looks weird where it's at. It's also not centered correctly.

[Lowlander]

You can already move the menu under the tabs, so both above and under is already available.